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Post by Author By Night on Feb 14, 2009 14:45:00 GMT -5
The Longbottoms are one family I've had questions about since Goblet of Fire.
Do we know why exactly they were attacked? I believe JKR said it wasn't because of the Prophecy. But then, why was it? Why would Bellatrix and co have suspected them of knowing where Voldemort was?
Another thing that's always puzzled me has been the matter of Augusta. Does she truly think that she's doing what's best for Neville by being harsh? Or does she not know she's being harsh? I sometimes feel like she just doesn't know how to relate to a teenage boy, but I've never been sure.
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Post by starsea on Feb 15, 2009 8:39:33 GMT -5
That's something I've always wondered about: we were never really told why Bellatrix and co, as you put it, picked on Frank and Alice in particular. Dumbledore explained at the end of OotP that Voldemort never seriously considered Neville to be the child of the prophecy, so why? In writing terms, I'm sure that Jo wanted Neville and Harry to have parallel childhoods, but in story terms, it's frustrating.
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Post by Author By Night on Feb 15, 2009 8:47:50 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of is that they simply saw the Longbottoms as threats, and were punishing them for catching the remaining Death Eaters. But then why wouldn't they have gone after Moody as well? Or Crouch? Considering his son was one of the ones who did the torturing, and hated his father, you'd think that would be the easiest choice. (No, I'm not morbid...)
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Post by vegablack on Feb 15, 2009 18:23:25 GMT -5
I thought that the Longbottoms would have been viewed as an excellent source of information being both Aurors and Members of the Order. They would have known both the information on Voldemort that the Auror department had and the information that the Order had aquired. Such sets of information might not have been the same. People like the Lestrange group might have thought that they had information that they didn't share all their information with both groups. (And indeed that might have been true they would have been in a difficult situation serving two masters.) They might have felt that they had information that they kept for their own use.
The only other person who were in a similar position was Moody. He might have been a more difficult person to capture or he might have been viewed as less vulnerable having no family. We are told that Alice was tortured to force Frank to speak. Perhaps he was picked over Moody because he had a family and was thus seen as having a weakness.
JKR said in an interview with the Leaky Cauldron that they were chosen because they were hated for being efficient Aurors who had arrested many Death Eaters.
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 18, 2009 15:12:34 GMT -5
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong - I don't have access to my book to check - but wasn't there a mention somewhere about Frank and Alice Longbottom, like James and Lily Potter, having "thrice defied" Voldemort?
I thought that was why they were targets... unless I've got that wrong in my head.
I see your mention, ABN, that JKR said it wasn't down to the Prophecy, but I thought that was one of the reasons why it could have been Neville who was chosen, aside from sharing his birthday with Harry.
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Post by mo on Feb 18, 2009 17:14:49 GMT -5
I seem to recall that the "thrice defied" bit wasn't really explicitly laid out for either the Potters or the Longbottoms.
I hope I'm not thinking of Fanon, but didn't Dumbledore point to the fact that Harry, like Tom Riddle, is a half blood, as part of why the Icky One went after him instead of Neville?
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Post by vegablack on Feb 18, 2009 18:43:32 GMT -5
Both the Longbottoms and the Potters thrice defied Voldemort and it is said so by both Dumbledore and the prophesy. Dumbledore lists that as one of the reasons why both boys were considered as possible candidates.
Voldemort chose Harry probably because he was the one who was most like him, being a half blood. This is made much of by Dumbledore that despite his ideology he chose Harry as the greater threat.
The fact that the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort successfully three times as the Potters had may have played a role in their attack. The DE's may have resented them even more because of it and it might have increased their importance and perceived power in their enemies minds.
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Post by MWPP on Feb 20, 2009 3:55:32 GMT -5
Voldemort only got part of the Prophecy, Snape didn't hear the whole thing. So V was after the "thrice defied" "as July dies" kids because he didn't know which one was the one.
I think he went after Harry first, not because he eliminated Neville for some reason or other, but because Wormtail HAPPENED to have been given the opportunity get V through the protections Dumbledore had put into place. I really think that is the entire reason V went after Harry that night, because if the Secret Keeper-ness was removed from Wormtail, the Dark Side lost their chance at the Potters, so he went there first. Had he not lost hsi powers and body, I'm betting Neville and his family would have been next. V was one to cover all his bases.... overkill....
Author_BY_Night - They did go after Moody after V fell. When Harry first falls into the Pensieve Moody isn't all scarred up. Then later he says how Rosier "took a piece of me with him", talking about his nose.
It's possible that Bella and crew went to the Longbottom's because they knew V was after both boys, and assumed that Frank and Alice would therefore know more than they possibly could.
And Dumbledore's explanation seemed more after-the-choice-was-made. I still hold with the decision as to which to go for first was made because that Wormy could get his Master inside the Fidelius so they had to use that window of opportunity.
[There are so many places where JKR needs to tell us the backstory. *sigh* Either that or she really really really should have made it a 10 or 14 book set instead of 7 that left so much out.... ]
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Post by vegablack on Feb 20, 2009 13:28:09 GMT -5
Rosier took a piece of him before the Longbottom trial. Rosier like Wilkes died while fighting off his arrest. I think that was a normal fight between a Death Eater and the Auror who was attempting to arrest him. I don't think that had anything to do with the Longbottom attack.
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Post by MWPP on Feb 20, 2009 21:32:58 GMT -5
Ohhh! Good catch, Vega! I mixed my years up on Moody's timeline.
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Post by vegablack on Feb 21, 2009 1:03:28 GMT -5
I'm trying to write a multi-chapter fic about the Longbottoms so I've followed all the trials in GOF very closely.
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Post by magikcat on Feb 25, 2009 20:43:22 GMT -5
I never pass up a chance to talk about this family.
What I always thought for a long time was that they were attacked because they were the other family who filled the requirements of the Prophesy -- either Voldemort mentioned them briefly or the loyal Death Eaters figured it out for themselves. In their own warped way they thought this meant they had some kind of information.
But now, I'm not so sure, because this is assuming the Death Eaters knew about the prophesy. I'm not sure they did. (Can anyone answer that for me?)
So, with that in mind, I think vegablack's theory that their positions as Aurors and Order members made them good targets is perhaps the most likely.
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 25, 2009 23:11:35 GMT -5
It seemed clear to me in the books that, while the Death Eaters and others knew there was a prophecy involving Harry Potter and Voldemort, no one else other than Dumbledore and Harry knew the whole of what the prophecy said.
Dumbledore says this in the scene where he and Harry are standing in the Weasleys' broom shed at the start of HBP.
And only Snape knew some of it aside from them since Trelawney seems to have no recolleciton of stating it.
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Post by starsea on Feb 27, 2009 16:52:49 GMT -5
Indeed: the whole point of getting Harry to the Department of Mysteries was so that he could get the Prophecy and the Death Eaters could then give the prophecy to Voldemort so he could finally hear the whole thing. Snape only heard up to the "child born as the seventh month dies, born to those who have thrice defied him" bit. The other Death Eaters did not know what was in the prophecy and then it was shattered before anybody else could hear it.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 1, 2009 3:18:19 GMT -5
The Longbottoms were blood traitors. They were purebloods. Everyone of the people who attacked them were purebloods. The Longbottoms had fought against Voldemort and had put many Death Eaters in Azkaban. (JKR interview) They would have sent many fellow purebloods to Azkaban.
I think their attackers would have seen them as traitors to their own kind. Death Eaters frequently say that blood traitors are as bad as Mudbloods.
I think that hatred of them for their supposed betrayal probably played a role in their attack.
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Post by doriscrockford on Mar 1, 2009 6:39:52 GMT -5
I found this explanation for the Longbottom's torture in GoF (Chapter 30 The Pensieve, UK ed. pp.516-517):
Crouch is announcing the charges against Crouch Jr and co:
'We have evidence against you. The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He Who Must Not Be Named -'
'Father, I didn't!' shrieked the boy in chains below. 'I didn't, I swear it, Father, don't send me back to the Dementors -'
'You are further accused,' bellowed Mr Crouch, 'of using the Cruciatus curse on Frank Longbottom's wife, when he would not give you information. You planned to restore He Who Must Not Be Named to power and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while he was strong. I now ask the jury -'
And later in the chapter when Harry and Dumbledore are discussing what Harry had seen in the Pensieve, Dumbledore says:
'His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard.' (UK ed. p.523)
So coincidentally, it appears the prophecy was not the reason for the torture but that as an Auror, Frank might have knowledge of Voldemort's whereabouts.
Re-reading this chapter I remember how when I read it before the film came out I wasn't sure whether Crouch Jr had been a Deatheater before he went to prison or was recruited once he got there. I was leaning toward the latter, knowing JKR's connection with Amnesty International and thinking it might be a protest against incarcerating innocent people "just in case" but the film seemed to simplify the matter in a way in which I assume she must have agreed.
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Post by starsea on Mar 1, 2009 15:30:18 GMT -5
I don't know, Doris, I think you may be right that they recruited him whilst in Azkaban, because that's what happened to Stan Shunpike (though Stan was under Imperius). If Stan hadn't been imprisoned and kept there for publicity, he would never have been up there on that broomstick, chasing Harry.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 1, 2009 22:32:12 GMT -5
I never doubted that Barty Crouch Jr. was guilty. I think she was saying an even more sophisticated statement than a protest against unfair trials of the innocent. Amnesty is against torture and unfair trials for everyone.
I think she was saying that even the guilty deserve a fair trial.
The three Lestrange's trials were just as unfair and they were guilty.
Barty Crouch showed himself to be an accomplished liar. I always assumed he was acting during the trial scenes. His youth didn't convince me of his innocense. Most violent crime is commited by people under the age of 25. Some of the worst atrocities in history have been commited by teenagers.
He isn't a child. He is over 18.
The son of the head of the department of magical law would be a useful person for the Lestranges to use. In my mind his connections to the ministry were why the LeStranges were able to get close enough to Frank and Alice to capture them.
The kangaroo court deprived society of the trust that the guilty were jailed. That is why we the reader feel cheated of knowing what really happened.
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Post by Mirabelle on Mar 1, 2009 23:04:32 GMT -5
I've had the same thought. If James and Lily went into hiding, I think Frank and Alice did too unless their position as Aurors made it impossible for them to disappear so they just sent Neville into hiding. One thing I've always wondered was Neville's whereabouts on the night his parents were tortured. He couldn't have been on the scene because I don't think there's any way he would have escaped torture or death.
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Post by eirdescania on Mar 3, 2009 15:52:17 GMT -5
The Longbottoms weren't attacked until after Voldie's defeat, so perhaps everyone was letting their guard down a bit.
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