Is this canon?

[Author By Night]

You may find yourself writing or drawing; you're really into it when you realize something: you're not entirely sure whether or not something is canon.

Don't be embarrassed - after all, between speculation, fanfiction, the movies, and the fact that there's seven (long!) books, it's easy to get confused. Consider this: Numerous fanfics mention "wards", referring to protection spells. I was convinced myself that they are canon. But in fact, while there are "wards" at St. Mungo's, the term is never used to describe any sort of spells.

As a writer or an artist, however, it's helpful to know what actually is canon. This is the thread to ask any questions you have!

[kelleypen]

I'm writing Remus in an RP . .. au where the Lupins survive. Already not canon. But I've extrapolated how I believe Jo wrote Remus: self-doubting, highly skilled, intelligent, dreading transforming, loyal, seeking approval, a little angsty. Another player hates the way I portray him. She is asking me to change Remus or his friends will leave him, which would be even more uncanon. I've offered to compromise and save the angsty parts for when he isn't with the players she writes, but she doesn't like that idea. Sigh. Am I totally wrong here? Is Remus much more assured and confident than I think he is?

[pigwithhair]

Kelleypen,

You didn't say how your writing partner wishes Lupin to be portrayed, merely that she dislikes how you're doing it. What you've described sounds very Lupin-esqe to me, without having read what you're reading.

But, more importantly, I have to ask why are you co-writing with someone you clearly disagree with so much? Characterization is so important - or it is when you're trying to write the characters as intended in the books - it seems strange to me that you're writing with someone who clearly sees things so differently from yourself.

It would seem the best course of action would be for you each to write your own stories as you see the characters.

[Author By Night]

The problem with roleplaying is that you're dealing with a bunch of people in one setting trying to make a story work - all who have very different interpretations of canon characters and themes. So your problem is bound to come up.

I've extrapolated how I believe Jo wrote Remus: self-doubting, highly skilled, intelligent, dreading transforming, loyal, seeking approval, a little angsty.

I agree with pigwithhair: That sounds pretty accurate to me.

I think I see the problem: many fans see Remus as he was portrayed before HBP. And its no wonder - we see Remus as he appeared in books three and five: highly skilled, intelligent, dreading transforming, and loyal. I remember complaining that Remus was OOC in TDH. But if we look further into books three and five, we do see those negative traits - just not as much, minus the pensieve scene. Remus could be cold, detached, and seeking of approval in those books too.

[kelleypen]

Well, as long as we are writing together, we probably will never perfectly see eye to eye. So knowing you guys back me up makes getting along for her sake easier.

This--which is supposed to be a private Remus journal entry and not for anyone else's eyes--is the post that was the 'last straw' for her. Admittedly, this one is angstier than most of his, but this self-doubt and wish to remove himself from where he might harm others has been an underlying current in how I write him.

I watched the moon last night. Just a little crescent smile. But it never smiles at me. I can't remember when I ever felt the moon was innocuous. Nor do I remember the time before I became what I am.

James, Sirius, Lily . . . they held me here and gave me reason, gave me hope. Before them it was my parents. Then Dumbledore and Sirius and Harry. Now? It is my lovely wife, my son, the child on the way . . . they hold me here. But without them? I would rather join my friends, even by my own hand. I tried to treat Dora the way I did Anna so many years ago. Forget her, let her put me out of her mind. But my Dora would have none of it. She would not let me go.

Each transformation I think of how much I'd rather face death than transform again. The agony of transformation, of facing the monster inside me, of knowing who I really am, is that painful. And each time, I find the courage to face another moon only through the love of so many good friends. It would be so much simpler for them if they had never known me. But they do know me and depend on me. So I stay. I tighten my Gryffindor courage and survive.

[Author By Night]

I can see the post coming across as "Remus wants to die", but while I don't imagine he does on a regular basis... it's not that outlandish that, while transforming, he'd have dark thoughts. However, I have to admit that I think it's maybe a bit drastic if you mean to imply he wishes death upon himself.

[birdg]

I'd like to know if any of these things that are so popular in fanfic are actually canon:

- Hermione chastising Ron on his language.

- Hermione calling him "Ronald". (That's from the movies, right?)

- Draco referring to Ron as "Weasel". (Or Ginny as "She-Weasel"/"Weaselette".)

- In turn, Ron referring to Draco as "The Ferret"/"Ferretface". (Isn't the latter from... M*A*S*H?)

[pigwithhair]

My apologies - I missed the "RP" mention before. Obviusly, that's a factor. Sorry.

[Author By Night]

Feb 23, 2009 19:10:21 GMT -5 birdg said:

I'd like to know if any of these things that are so popular in fanfic are actually canon:

- Hermione chastising Ron on his language.

- Hermione calling him "Ronald". (That's from the movies, right?)

- Draco referring to Ron as "Weasel". (Or Ginny as "She-Weasel"/"Weaselette".)

- In turn, Ron referring to Draco as "The Ferret"/"Ferretface". (Isn't the latter from... M*A*S*H?)

1. Hermione says something to Ron about it in book three, but I don't think she does after that.

2. I think Hermione actually does call him Ronald in book seven, but it's in jest. Molly calls him Ronald at one point.

3. I think Draco did call him The Weasel, or Weasel.

4. I'm not sure, but Hermione does call Draco a "twitchy little ferret", and I think that proves I've read the books way too often because it was in the middle of a huge chapter in book four or something.

[birdg]

Oh, "twitchy little ferret" I remember. That's when Hermione says Moody is nearby and Draco freaks out.

And now I remember "The Weasel", that was from POA when he referred to Harry and Ron as "Potty and the Weasel".

[MWPP]

Feb 23, 2009 19:10:21 GMT -5 birdg said:

I'd like to know if any of these things that are so popular in fanfic are actually canon:

- Hermione chastising Ron on his language.

- Hermione calling him "Ronald". (That's from the movies, right?)

- Draco referring to Ron as "Weasel". (Or Ginny as "She-Weasel"/"Weaselette".)

- In turn, Ron referring to Draco as "The Ferret"/"Ferretface". (Isn't the latter from... M*A*S*H?)

I think I remember Hermione chastising Ron on language in one of the early books. Draco does in OotP once he is part of the Inquisitorial Squad.

Luna cals Ron by his given name, but I don't remember Hermione doing it.

Draco does call Ron "Weasleby", I don't remember anyone getting away with wanking on Ginny though (especially with her Bat-Bogey Hex).

Ron "savoured" Draco being a ferret when the Trio went to lunch right after, something along the lines of "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret".



'Hope that helps. *shrugs*



.

[pigwithhair]

I think Hermione actually does call him Ronald in book seven, but it's in jest. Molly calls him Ronald at one point.

Hermione only calls Ron by his full name once in the entire series and it's not in jest. She uses it when she first starts hitting him when he returns with Harry to the tent after the Silver Doe part.

I have to agree that all of the things BirdG mentioned above are over used in fan fiction, particularly Hermione saying something to Ron about his language. I agree with the poster above who said she did so only once.

[siriusgirl]

I don't think the movies are canon but I could be wrong. I think the books and it's branches (like the quidditch through the ages, and fantsatic beasts) etc are?

what about the games, are those canon? Personally, I don't think think they are

[siriusgirl]

I don't think the movies are canon but I could be wrong. I think the books and it's branches (like the quidditch through the ages, and fantsatic beasts) etc are?

what about the games, are those canon?

[birdg]

Since the movies at times contradict the books, no, they're not canon. I think most people include the seven books and sometimes the three supplemental books as canon.

[vegablack]

And some people include the interviews. (I do as best I can, though that is touchy because people can miss one.)

[Mirabelle]

I consider the books and the supplemental books canon, interviews potential canon, and the movies WB's interpretation of canon.

[Author By Night]

Mirabelle, I like "potential canon" for interviews. I'm on the fence otherwise, because on one hand, if JKR says it, well, she did write the books. And I think a lot of people don't want to hear what she says if it diverts from their views and/or expectations.

OTOH, I also think that her mind is bound to change. And I think that while casual fans are known for asking silly questions, there is the other side of that: intense fans like us sometimes think about things she may not have thought of, resulting in answers that are later contradicted when she actually has thought about it.

I also wonder sometimes how much early canon even contradicts later canon, just because while I know it's a general fandom consensus that the books were outlined from the get go... apparently she didn't originally even know if there would be seven books. She didn't even know that PS/SS would be published.

Some examples of things that make me wonder how much was even planned:

- In PS/SS, "Scabbers" is chewing a blanket. Either he became more ratlike in rat form and forgot until PoA that he wasn't actually a rat, or until PoA, JKR had him as a true rat.

- There is no indication until GoF that Aurors exist, and yet, plenty of things in the previous books would have called for some mention of them. There's a monster lurking in Hogwarts petrifying/trying to kill children, and nobody even asks if there's Aurors around within earshot of Harry? Sirius breaks out of Azkaban and the MoM relies entirely on soul sucking creatures? Now, I do have a partial explanation - they obviously wouldn't have advertised their presence. But I still think Harry would have heard about them, especially if he listened in on Molly and Arthur's conversation. This leads me to believe that either JK Rowling wanted us to learn about the world very, very slowly, or she hadn't even come up with Aurors until the fourth book.

Now, in fairness to the latter, Harry's also fourteen - the things I didn't notice or realize at fourteen are now, in retrospect, laughable. But still, it seems odd.

I'm just saying that these things do complicate it a little, because it makes me wonder how reliable the earliest books really are in terms of canon. I still try and stick to them, but i also wonder how much JKR would have changed her mind about.

[vegablack]

I agree with your arguments but not your point details.

I think it is ridiculous the whole discussion of how much JKR planned in advance. (The total absurdity are the fans who get angry over this.) a writer who refuses to alter her story in edits and rewrites, because she planned it that way from the begining, is a bad writer. Of course she changed and added things as she moved along.

But I don't think the details you list are significant. Pettigrew had to have acted like a real rat for years because otherwise he would have been caught. These are magical people they are familiar with the idea of animagi and secret ones at that. He might have been establishing his bonafides. Also Animagi still feel like the animal and have the animal's urges and instincts in addition to his human ones. That is why Sirius was helped by being in animal form in Azkaban. Rats have a strong urge to chew. Peter might have been exercising it. I bet McGonagall rubs against things in animagus form. She also retains enough of her human mind to observe and to be able to change herself back.

Most of what Harry knows in COS and POA are in overheard comversations, he either didn't hear or didn't understand mentions of the Aurors. He is a kid and his interests are limited. The early books were improved as books, by JKR keeping them tight and only discussing the details of her world that were necessary in the books. An explanation of what an Auror was would have been an unnecessary info-dump in my opinion. He is only thirteen in POA. How much would he think through all the things the adults are doing?

I wonder whether Dumbledore did allow police officers in the school. He had a lot of control at this point. He was perfectly happy to allow Harry to go after the stone in book one. Perhaps he viewed Harry's vulnerability in book three to be a good test. Perhaps he kept the Aurors out of the school in both books. He opperates that way in all the books. He never reported Dracos attempted murders even though one attempt ended in a student being seriously hospitalized. He keeps himself in control of all information and of the school. (I never blamed Scrimgeour for his distrust and resentment.)

I don't doubt the early books at all. As I've said before I read book seven amazed at how much light it shade on the early books. I never beleived in a headmaster who would give an invisibility cloak to an eleven year old and who would allow that eleven year old to go after the Philosopher's stone. But then after book seven I understood. He always intended to risk the kids life. That was part of the plan. He never had a normal attitude toward him. (A headmaster who intends to allow one of his students to die doesn't have a normal attitude to said student. The fact that he was pretty sure Harry could come back doesn't count. To quote the incredibles, gamble with your own life not someone else's. The fact that he felt it was a necessity merely explains it.)

In the end what a writer intends doens't matter its what is written on the page.

[queenie]

Now I have a disagreement with one of your points, vegablack.

Even if Dumbledore liked the idea of Harry being all at-risk and vulnerable - even if we take that as true - what we do know is that Dumbledore hated Dementors, didn't want them at the school, and had them removed from school grounds at the first opportunity. He was furious when they threatened the Quidditch game in the rain in PoA and he was furious when Fudge brought an unauthorized Dementor to destroy Barty Crouch, Jr. I'm sure that either Dumbledore would have taken any possible stand - any possible, reliable police force - other than Dementors, or else that Fudge, or perhaps the school board of governers, put their foot down and insisted that if Hogwarts would be the no. 1 target of Sirius Black, then nothing but Dementors would do, because they would know Sirius at once. Aurors might have been on heightened security everywhere else - Gringotts, for example, which apparently has such top-notch security they accept notes from cats - but for Hogwarts, not only the primary target but the home of all wizarding children in England, only the most ruthless guards would do. According to Fudge and/or the board of governers.
However, Dumbledore would still wish he had some Aurors around instead.

Also? Some stuff in interviews I just take as silly or thoughtless. Neville marrying Hannah Abbott? Sure. Hannah Abbott running the Leaky Cauldron, all the way in London, when she could be close by the school and running the Three Broomsticks? Straining my credibility. And James Potter's Patronus being a biting teacup is, there's no other word for it, stupid. Little stuff like that.