Old-fashioned values in fan fiction

[mollyweasley]

Hi!

I have been reading quite a lot of H/G fics. I think it is amazing how (mostly?) young writers produce stories with such old-fashioned values. It is common (at least in stories with lower ratings) that all characters believes that it is wrong with sex before marriage. It is also very common that Harry needs to ask Mr Weasley before he proposes to Ginny.

I find all this very old-fashioned. Or is it just a difference between cultures? I thought that it was at least 50-100 year ago a boy asked the girl´s father about her hand?

The books takes place in the 1990´s. I was a teenager (in Sweden) at the same time and in my world we were free to decide of our own lives (boyfriends/girlfriends/sex/marriage/etc.) Neither my parents nor my friends parents were concerned if we slept at our boyfriend´s/girlfriend´s houses.

Do you believe this is a culture thing, or is it somehow more romantic to write about old-fashioned values? Maybe it is different in the magic world? I am a muggle after all...

[birdg]

I think this comes from a few things. For starters, the books themselves appear quite chaste and old-fashioned. Also, a lot of the people writing these fics are Americans who feel the need to push their own ideas off on characters from different cultures. So you get characters who are waiting for marriage - but haven't been given any reason, religious or otherwise, to do so.

There's the fact that the British wizarding world itself seems to take a more old-fashioned view of sex and marriage - consider Molly and Ron's talk of "scarlet women" and how Rita wrote up Dumbledore's relationship with Grindelwald. It reminded me of how gossip mags from the 50's would talk about Rock Hudson. People in the know, knew he was gay but many didn't because you simply did not speak of such things.

Now, I don't think the wizarding world is as old-fashioned as some people imagine. Some fans still wonder if wizarding marriages last forever and if divorce/adultery/separation is unheard of but in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them it's mentioned that one married man ran off with the landlady for the Green Dragon Pub. So not all wizard-wizard marriages are happily ever after. The Celestina Warbeck songs we've heard of seem to rely heavily on sexual innuendo like many old jazz standards would.

And I could see some people waiting for marriage (or really until they're engaged) but they'd probably be witches and more likely to be pure-bloods from important families. They wouldn't do so out of any belief but because it would help them snag the best husband. Even those who didn't wait, would try to be discreet.

So, I think the wizarding world is old-fashioned but it's 1950, not 1850 and it's the real 1950's not the "Leave It To Beaver" version.

It is also very common that Harry needs to ask Mr Weasley before he proposes to Ginny.

I cannot see Harry even thinking to do this, to be honest. And Ginny's eyes might roll so far back in her head they'd get stuck if he tried. Ron might think to do that (and it would likely lead to an entertaining conversation with Hermione unless she's been given a fanfic lobotomy) and I could see Neville or even Draco thinking to do that.

But not Harry.

[mollyweasley]

Sept 17, 2009 15:42:30 GMT -5 birdg said:

Ron might think to do that (and it would likely lead to an entertaining conversation with Hermione unless she's been given a fanfic lobotomy)

I think so too. Ron seems to have some strange ideas sometimes!

[nundu]

I am around the age of Molly Weasley (of the books ), and even my generation (yes, the children of the 60's) considered living together before marriage quite daring and it wasn't done openly. I knew a couple of girls in school who 'got in trouble', and they left school to have their babies. One came back the next year, but one never came back. My husband and I waited until we were married to have sex.

Our oldest daughter married a few years back. Her boyfriend asked my husband for her 'hand'. Hubby's reply was 'Aren't you asking the wrong person?' But it was said with a grin and a handshake. It was actually my daughter's idea (she was born the same year as Harry Potter).

I don't think it's a matter of Americans feeling the need to 'push' their ideas on readers from other countries. Americans are, by cultural, more conservative than Europeans in their sexual mores. An American writer of fanfic is probably going be more conservative. And what's wrong with that? I get more annoyed by writers of fanfic that have everyone sleeping with everyone else and cursing a blue streak. What's wrong with writing fanfic in the same style used by the original author? I have actually found that the teens have a tendency to write with the characters acting more liberally. A pet peeve of mine are stories who project societal mores and style of the new millenium on the Potter school era (90s). Remember, these stories take place over 10 years ago, which was different than behaviors today.

As Bridg said, the books are written with a much more conservative society than the average British society, even 10 years ago. I know today the language you hear on the streets of London is far rougher than that I heard on the streets of northern England 20 and 30 years ago. I don't think the society is necessarily a 50's style, but rather a society that protects the children within home and school (at least until Voldemort took over the school).

These books grew with Harry, but I feel the author kept in mind that her readers still kept joining the series at a young age, and kept the language and actions appropriate for all ages.

[birdg]

An American writer of fanfic is probably going be more conservative. And what's wrong with that?

Because they're not writing about Americans. I wouldn't expect them to write about someone from the Middle East and push more permissive American values on them either. It just doesn't feel right.

What's wrong with writing fanfic in the same style used by the original author?

Nothing but JKR was writing about children for children. Fanfic is written for adults about (usually) adults. They're two completely different audiences. And you don't have to be explicit to write a story that's aimed at adults or that reflects the values a character.

I have actually found that the teens have a tendency to write with the characters acting more liberally.

In my experience, I tend to find teens tend to go more conservative (you get the most waiting-for-marriage fics from them) and it's people in their 20's and 30's who tend to write the characters as being more liberal sexually.

I get more annoyed by writers of fanfic that have everyone sleeping with everyone else and cursing a blue streak

I don't, if it fits the characters. I can't see say, Molly, ever doing that and while I don't think Hermione is the uptight prude some people make her out to be, she's not some free-wheeling libertine either.

JKR has said that Ron would swear a lot and I think Draco would too. Harry not so much and Hermione only when she's really angry and so on and so forth. Same thing with how certain characters would treat sex, it will vary with each character.

[vegablack]

The books takes place in the 1990´s. I was a teenager (in Sweden) at the same time and in my world we were free to decide of our own lives (boyfriends/girlfriends/sex/marriage/etc.) Neither my parents nor my friends parents were concerned if we slept at our boyfriend´s/girlfriend´s houses.


I believe you are asking about American mores here. I can not imagine an American father other than in a very small set of subcultures taking a request to marry his daughter as a serious question. I can't imagine one who felt himself free to say no, unless his daughter was hanging out with a violent drug abusing ex-convict who had brain washed her.

Certainly my father never asked my mother's father to marry my mother and they lived pretty conservative lives. I think current men who ask father's to marry their daughters are playacting a tradition akin to having the father give the daughter away rather than asking a serious question. My sister married at 35 as a very successful engineer who owned her own home and earned more than her fiance and my father still gave her away.

The kids are being overly romantic. Everyone seems influenced by Austen as much as Potter. As to premarital sex, there are a lot of religious people in the US, more than in Europe and many are highly traditional. They do not believe in premarital sex. But some times people violate their own standards or the tenets of their own religion and sometimes they don't.

I think some of the writers are young and inexperienced and want the characters they write to remain that way. I don't think that is inapropriate.

[birdg]

I think some of the writers are young and inexperienced and want the characters they write to remain that way.

Yeah, I don't really blame teens who write the characters that way. In fact, I rather prefer it to them writing any NC-17 stuff.

[mollyweasley]

Sept 17, 2009 22:39:59 GMT -5 vegablack said:

I think some of the writers are young and inexperienced and want the characters they write to remain that way. I don't think that is inapropriate.

I can see how young teenagers write like that. I have many students (age 10-13) who read Harry Potter, and I am glad that J K Rowling only have written about mild snogging in the canon. If the books were written primary for older teenagers and/or adults had the canon perhaps been difference.

But in fan fiction written by adults or older teenagers I still find it a bit strange.

I guess there is another difference between cultures here. The actual proposal when the man asks the woman to marry her (like they do it in movies) is very strange for me. I don´t know anyone who got engaged like that. If you decide to marry it is something you decide together as a couple. The couple choose rings together, and then decide a day and a romantic place when they put the rings at each other´s fingers.

I can´t think of any of my married friends who didn´t live together för at least a year before the were engaged. At least half of my friends (including me and my husband )waited to get married until the first child was born. Those of my friends who are more religious than the rest of us have married before they got pregnant, but they were still living together for a few years first.

[mollyweasley]

Sept 17, 2009 21:01:07 GMT -5 nundu said:

I get more annoyed by writers of fanfic that have everyone sleeping with everyone else and cursing a blue streak.

I can agree on that one though. I don´t like those stories there the main characters throw themselves at each other in the common room right after the final battle. It is out of character, I think. And I don´t need all those details either. But on the other hand I don´t believe either H/G or R/H intends to wait for years.

[vegablack]

I guess there is another difference between cultures here. The actual proposal when the man asks the woman to marry her (like they do it in movies) is very strange for me. I don´t know anyone who got engaged like that. If you decide to marry it is something you decide together as a couple. The couple choose rings together, and then decide a day and a romantic place when they put the rings at each other´s fingers.

Right now in American culture people enjoy very overblown romantic gestures. Wedding have become highly expensive very complex productions. One of my friends is getting a second job to pay for her daughter's. (Is that crazy or what?) Engagements have become marked by elaborate rituals. My kids are in their twenties and many of their friends are getting married. They all seem to have gotten engaged in a big moment planned by the man that is designed to be unique and romantic and is sometimes absurd. (Every once in awhile it shows up in the news when someone's engagement ring floated away in the helium balloons some man was giving a woman.)

Of course this is another case of playacting. There is no question that the woman intends to say yes, and the question isn't really a question. As a matter of fact a lot of the girls are waiting around trying to figure out in what special moment the guy is going to ask. Some modern types do it during romantic vacations that resemble honeymoons. The participants love it.

Personally I hate it and don't find it romantic but fake. But then I realize that I am a 70's hippy chick. Sincerity was the rage not romantic gestures that were perceived as false. Weddings were simple and comparatively cheap and proposals were matter of fact. I have no engagement ring.

Whether the couple is living together doesn't make much of a difference. My sister lived with her husband for a number of years before they got married and he still asked her to marry him in a during a romantic moment on a trip to New York City that was very preplanned by him. She was in her thirties and he was forty and had been married before. She never doubted she would say yes, and was just waiting for the moment on the trip when he was going to ask. Like I said to me it was all like participating in a play.

Since the writers enjoy this sort of thing they put it in their stories. I who hate it never will. I purposely write very simple weddings and uncomplicated proposals.

As to adults writing the characters as chaste. Some may be writing from scruples. Some may want to match the tone of the books even if they are writing for adults. Some may have teenagers themselves and feel conflicted about the idea of teens or even young adults having sex. Some may just want to have the whole romantic stew and think its cuter if the characters are chaste. Some may really believe that the wizarding world is conservative and the characters wouldn't be having sex before marriage.

I have the opposite problem. I read most of my stories on LJ and find the characters often do a ridiculous amount of bed-hopping even in low rated stories. I don't read much Harry - Ginny or Hermione-Ron though.

Premarital sex and living together is very common in the general population in the US. Though not among very religious people.

[vegablack]

My appologies to any one who got engaged this way. I feel real pleasure in the happiness of those who become engaged in this way. My son loves this tradition and scoffs at my dislike of it. He claims that when he gets married some day he'll ask in an elaborate and romantic way. (There's no one on the horizon on the moment.)

The above is one woman's opinion and I hope I was not offensive.

[birdg]

Fans want to project their idea of what a romantic wedding is much like they want to project what their idea of romance is. Characters will have certain relationships because they should and it will be good for them (like vegetables, I guess) and not because it reflects their wants or desires. Likewise, characters will have a certain kind of wedding because it's what the fans want, not what the characters would have.

I think the weddings depend on the characters. Some characters would want big, fussy affairs (I think someone like Draco would because weddings are status symbols and he would know that) and others would want something smaller, more simple. Also, some characters are probably stuck having a certain wedding out of circumstance. For instance, I don't think Ginny, the only girl born to the Weasley family in generations is going to be able to elope unless she wants to break Molly's heart. She's going to have a wedding and it will probably be a big one.

Of course this is another case of playacting. There is no question that the woman intends to say yes, and the question isn't really a question.

Well, I think it's considered more practical by my generation to discuss marriage right down to the engagement beforehand. Things like engagement rings are hot topics. (Like if I ever got engaged I would expect my theoretical fiance to know that DeBeers diamonds are out.) And since they want the big wedding, they have to plan and book venues in advance and all that fun stuff the Wedding Industrial Complex says you need to have ~the perfect day~.

[vegablack]

Well, I think it's considered more practical by my generation to discuss marriage right down to the engagement beforehand. Things like engagement rings are hot topics. (Like if I ever got engaged I would expect my theoretical fiance to know that DeBeers diamonds are out.) And since they want the big wedding, they have to plan and book venues in advance and all that fun stuff the Wedding Industrial Complex says you need to have ~the perfect day~.

Oh I wasn't criticizing that the question isn't a real question. I think that is sensible. I was getting across that the whole engagement moment is part of the wedding ritual and not a serious moment where some guy is asking some girl to marry him, and isn't sure if she wants to.

I was responding to this question:"The actual proposal when the man asks the woman to marry her (like they do it in movies) is very strange for me. I don´t know anyone who got engaged like that. If you decide to marry it is something you decide together as a couple."

And was saying that just because a guy asked a woman to marry him, doesn't mean they hadn't "decided together as a couple" to get married." It just means they do want to have a scene like they have in movies.

You are right about the wedding matching the characters. I agree that Draco would have an elaborate wedding as would Harry and Ginny for different reasons. I would probably write a wedding that way for them. I haven't written much about them yet so it hasn't come up. The characters that I write would probably have a quiet wedding because it would match theri personalities and circumstances, which matches my preferences.

I do agree that such things should match the character. I probably would never descibe Draco's wedding though or Ginny's. I would probably write about aspect of their lives.

[vegablack]

I'm making some kind of major faux pas by answering after my answer but I've also wondered about all the fanfic writers who give their OTP's or side characters really large families. I've seen families of five, six or more children which is both unusual for the society the writers come from and a major damper on future adventures for the adult members of the family. Six children wonderful as they are tie you down.

Some of these are writers have no children of their own. One I can think of is an unmarried man.

What do you think of this?

[birdg]

I've always wondered this too. I think there is a tendency in fandom to equate how many children a couple has with how much they love each other. So Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione should have several children because they love each other very much whereas Draco/Asteria will only have one because they have a cold, arranged marriage (as far as fandom is concerned).

I admit I like to give Draco/Asteria an empty nest baby because I think a Malfoy girl could be a lot of fun and there are already limits on what I can do with Scorpius without making a story an AU. (I can't make a Squib for instance.) But I can't see Draco wanting lots of children - it'd be very foreign and stressful I think for him.

And I can't see Ron and Ginny wanting lots of children either. I think Ginny would know how difficult it was on her mum and after having three children within five years it makes sense she'd be done. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ron and Hermione had one more but no more than three. Ron knows what it's like to get lost in the shuffle and he wouldn't want his kids to go through that and I think Hermione has a lot of ambitions she wants to realize.

Besides, I have a feeling that both R/Hr and H/G considered each others' children to be theirs so they have five kids between themselves already. (Six if you include Teddy.)

[Author By Night]

Sept 21, 2009 15:57:34 GMT -5 birdg said:

Besides, I have a feeling that both R/Hr and H/G considered each others' children to be theirs so they have five kids between themselves already. (Six if you include Teddy.)

I agree that the Potter kids were probably raised much like siblings. I don't know that the trio and Ginny would think of it like that - they're just not that, well, mushy. But they were all close in age, and I'm sure that as all four of them worked, they also took turns helping care for the kids. Plus, after the books I can't see the trio not being involved in one another's lives, and of course this time Ginny would be included as well.

Regarding fandom and sex... I think that there's also a certain stereotype, especially held by Americans, that the British are generally prim and proper, and therefore would not consider sex before marriage the right thing to do. It doesn't help that the wizarding world does have a Charles Dickens air to it.

I don't think there's any basis for it in the books. While we haven't had any sex scenes and we don't necessarily know that we've had "lights out" moments, the characters are pretty far from innocent. If Ron were strict and prude, he wouldn't have been snogging Lavender.

I also think that fanfic authors self-insert a lot. So a writer whose parents were upset about some of her choices might put herself in Ginny's shoes, and... there you have it.

[birdg]

I don't know that the trio and Ginny would think of it like that - they're just not that, well, mushy.

They're not mushy in the books but they don't have kids in the books. Most people tend to become mushier about kids once they have them in my experience.

I also think that fanfic authors self-insert a lot. So a writer whose parents were upset about some of her choices might put herself in Ginny's shoes,

Oh definitely. I noticed this with people complaining they were married and had kids too young based on their own feelings and forgetting that not only is the wizarding world more conservative but that these characters have been through a lot - surviving the frontlines of a war and all. Harry's 18 was an older 18 than a lot of fans'.

[Author By Night]

Sept 21, 2009 20:15:15 GMT -5 birdg said:

I also think that fanfic authors self-insert a lot. So a writer whose parents were upset about some of her choices might put herself in Ginny's shoes,

Oh definitely. I noticed this with people complaining they were married and had kids too young based on their own feelings and forgetting that not only is the wizarding world more conservative but that these characters have been through a lot - surviving the frontlines of a war and all. Harry's 18 was an older 18 than a lot of fans'.

That's an excellent point. I also think fans forget that wizarding young adults are settled much earlier than they are in our world. There's no college or university - they go straight to working. By the time they're the age the trio and Ginny were when they had their children, many of them probably already be in the career tracks they're going to stay in and the like. If you know you've probably got a job for life, and already have a good amount of money to spare, why not start a family?