Inter house rivalry

[vegablack]

I have wondered if the first Voldemort war made the rivalry between the houses worse, especially the relationship between Slytherin and the other Houses.

Do you think the houses were more friendly and collegial before the war distorted wizarding life?

[birdg]

Probably, yes. I think during the rise of Voldemort and definitely during the war periods, Slytherin became the "Voldemort and the Death Eaters" house. And even if it wasn't true in the beginning, it likely became a self-fulfilling prophecy with people who were raised to sympathize with Voldy being sorted there, people who were already in the house either being converted to supporting Voldy (actively or passively) so as not to stand-out and those who didn't would keep their heads down because who would support them? The entire school cheers against Slytherin during games, it does strike me as a house apart. So if a Slytherin were to go against the grain by speaking out against Voldemort, they'd find themselves rejected by their housemates by not embraced by any other house either.

Someone wrote a great little drabble that touches on this (and JKR's statement that someone could change Slytherin) that involved Neville thinking about how certain students could hold sway over that house and how it was necessary to get people with the right attitude to push the right ideas.

[vegablack]

I wonder in the early years of the series how isolated the Slytherins actually were. I know the students cheered when they lost the house cup, but didn't it say that they had won it for many years running? Hadn't Gryffindor lost the Quidditch cup every year since Charlie was at school? How much of the cheering was for the fact that Gryffindor long shot Gryffindor had beaten then powerhouse Slytherin. Especially since Harry had just triumphantly returned form doing something unbelievably brave. Not cheering the boy who saved the Philosopher's stone would have been stranger and not awarding points for it would have been stranger still.

Harry of course hates the Slytherins who seem to be represented by Malfoy and Crabbe and Goyle in his mind. I'm not sure the other houses thought as he did. They were quite willing to believe that Harry was the heir of Slytherin, not some actual Slytherin.

In time as the Voldemort returned and the tensions in society grew, as Harry revealed the names of those involved with Voldemort and the realization that so many of them had kids in Slytherin tensions grew.

I don't see signs that in the early books general society was as hostile to Slytherin as Hagrid and Harry were. Fudge, the Minister of Magic sucks up to Lucius enough that I'm surprised the two aren't slashed. Many prominent Slytherin Death Eaters were able to escape imprisonment. Hagrid may be important to Harry but he was an outcast himself in society.



Many people may have feared and suspected them having the attitude toward Slytherin that Olivander had toward Voldemort.

After the war is another story.

(I agree with you about how Death Eaters became ascendant in Slytherin. And I think the position of non-death eaters would have been very difficult.)

[kelleypen]

I've been reading a good fan fiction and one of the first things the new headmaster did is tell the hat not to sort anyone. so it got up there and sang about unity and about how we all have qualities of all four houses, then quit. Then the headmaster counted off numbers, 1,2,3,4 and assigned houses randomly, all 1's slytherin, all 2's ravenclaw, etc. The fic then went on with the new dynamics of the firsties . . . I thought it was a brilliant idea.

[vegablack]

I'm strange in that I like sorting and the sorting hat. I think it offers as a litterary device interesting ideas about identity and values questions at issue for kids, the same way a patronus does. I don't see any house as bad or inferior. The fact that kids with the qualities of one house are found in another I found to be simply interesting. I'd be disappointed if I read a fic where kids were randomly assigned by number.

I don't think the assignment is bad for kids either. But then I don't see house afiliation as destiny. (I never use the phrase Gryffindor courage.)

But then one of my sons insists he's a Slytherin, and the other insists he's a Hufflepuff. (The "Slytherin wants to be a nurse and the Hufflepuff works in the computer industry, go figure.)

[kelleypen]

Hmmn, my four have identified themselves as a ravenclaw, a slytherpuff, and two gryffindors . . . me? At eleven I was a loner. I had a few good friends in the neighborhood, but none close at school. I was a reader, but it was of horse books and alcott. I had to be coerced into doing my homework. I was shy and artsy. I don't think at eleven I fit in any of the houses. So the rivalries would have been just another way of not getting picked for the team.

[vegablack]

But assuming you were in Harry Potter world, you wouldn't be choosing which house, and the house members wouldn't be choosing you either, the sorting hat who looked into your mind and supposedly could see aspects of your identity would be placing you.

You wouldn't feel rejected by the other kids the way not being picked for a team would make you feel, because they would play no role in the choice. The Sorting Hat chooses and he doesn't care. He doesn't have favorites among the houses.

I don't think you choose the house either, I think the sorting hat looks at the way you argue for the house and why you want a house as revealing your personality, values and gifts.

A lot of children don't know who they are, and don't grasp what an identity is. I think they would enjoy hearing the hat discuss them, pay attention to them and only them, and talk about what they are like, without judgement or rejection.

None of the kids seem disappointed in their house that is projected by fandom. A lonely outcast kid who is accepted in their house might like having a family of kids who accept you as a member. I don't know if Neville would have found a place on his own at eleven, but he is pretty accepted as a member of Gryffindor. We don't see other Gryffindors reject him, that is fandom too. Look at the way Lucius's arm went around Snape when he was sorted a Slytherin -- instant acceptance.

No one is not placed in a house. No one is rejected. Everyone belongs.

The risk is a kid who takes his placement unquestioningly as his identity and molds himself to the house without trying to find who he really is.

[kelleypen]

I'm just saying that were it real life, not a fictional place, it wouldn't work out so neatly. Even in the fictional place, it gets a bit messy. But in the real world? It would be a huge mess. On one hand, I can see the eleven year old who identifies with his new house and takes on that persona--for good or bad. I think you're right on there. But on the other hand, I can see the eleven year old who is unhappy with the choice, but seeing no better option, becomes more withdrawn. It seems a lot to put on an eleven year old. I wonder how real English boarding schools choose houses?

[starsea]

Aug 23, 2009 21:24:14 GMT -5 kelleypen said:

I wonder how real English boarding schools choose houses?

It depends on where you are in the register! There are generally four and the first goes into the house that comes alphabetically first, the second goes into the house that comes alphabetically second, etc. etc. Some people may be given to houses because of certain qualities in the house master/mistress that will benefit them, but otherwise, it's random.

[birdg]

But assuming you were in Harry Potter world, you wouldn't be choosing which house, and the house members wouldn't be choosing you either, the sorting hat who looked into your mind and supposedly could see aspects of your identity would be placing you.

You can choose though, that's a big point of the series. This doesn't mean Goyle could get into Ravenclaw if he asked but, then again, would Goyle want to go into Ravenclaw?

It's their choices, not their abilities, that determine their house placing. This means both the choice they make when they're sitting in the chair with the hat on the head and the choices they've made before that moment especially when it comes to what they value and what they believe in. Someone like Peter Pettigrew obviously valued bravery, boldness and chivalry even if he didn't live up to it. That was enough to put him in Gryffindor.

If Harry had chosen Slytherin over Gryffindor, the hat would have put him in Slytherin.

And I still think Sorting is silly at best and counter-productive at worst.

[vegablack]

I think there are some advantages to Sorting. (Though I admit it seems to have been created not because it was to the advantage of children but because the original founders used it as a compromise to be able to create a school at all. Each wanted a school for a certain type of child, and would not get the co-operation of the others to get it. They in affect created four schools within a school to enlist the help of the others to create a school at all.)

I think a child's peers feel he belongs in the house where he is placed and this leads to most children accepting their fellow members on some terms of friendship. (Luna being the exception.) I think Neville is more accepted as a member of Gryffindor because the others believe the hat must be right and he belongs there, than he would have been placed in a house on other terms. The house is there family and as a family member they belong. This is strengthened by the fact that unlike random placement the children believe the hat is always right so they beleive their fellow children are a part of the family in a way that they wouldn't in anyother situation. So they accept the more marginal members. (Luna is therefor the acceptionl.)

This points to the flip side of Sorting -- the children believe it is real so house divisions are strengthened.

Sorting seems to have been made a necessity at the creation of Hogwarts. I suspect the school can't exist without it however unhealthy it may be. The way Gravity can't be avoided and is governed by rules even if it kills. I wonder if the house divisions and Sorting are in a sense built into the school by the magic that created the school.

[siriusgirl]

If studetns picked their houses, they'd all be in either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw mostly. Slytherin is viewed as the house where only bad eggs go, and Hufflepuff is always so underrated.

The school house system is typical of a British school, the magical sorting determines it based on potential and what you seem to value most (usually). There are exceptions

I think JKR does a great job though of avoiding making everyone fit so neatly and perfectly. She shows us that it's for more our choices that determine who we. We see Slughorn, who knows or has learned to draw a line, despite being a Slytherin, he demonstrates that you can be ambitious and cunning and not evil. we see how Peter Pettigrew turned out despite being in Gryffindor. And also, Cormac McLaggen and Romild Vane though minor are both examples of unlikeable Gryffindors who show the dark side of being gallant: That it can be dangerous.

I think we do see it thruogh Harry's view and he matures and sees that not all Slytheirns are evil, when he sees Slughorn who he figures out isn't all that bad. We can take Hagrid's statement about Slytherins in book 1 as a grain of salt, we know he's far from impartial (as much as I love Hagrid), just like we can realize Sirius's opinion of Snape was warped and vice versa.

We do see though some interhouse marriages: Andromeda (who we can safely say is Slytheirn, judging by Slughorn's comment in HBP) marries Ted Tonks who likely wasn't a Slytherin (I say he was Hufflepuff like Tonks).

[vegablack]

I agree Sirius girl that JKR did a great job of keeping everyone from fitting too neatly into their houses. I like it that sometimes its hard to tell why someone is in a house. It's more realistic. Most people don't fit neatly into one of four categories. ( I liked your examples.)

(I agree that Ted Tonks is a Hufflepuff. Why else would he marry Bella's sister?)