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Post by vegablack on Jul 23, 2009 13:21:21 GMT -5
We know that the words Mudblood was considered an epithet. Do you think that the use of the words pureblood and halfblood fell out of favor as well?
The word pureblood implies that some blood is impure. Do you think people became more sensitive to this in time?
Did people still cling to the concept of blood purity even if the language disappeared?
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Post by birdg on Jul 23, 2009 13:48:19 GMT -5
I actually think a lot of people will question the use of the term "pureblood". It's definitely something I want to explore in a fic I'm working, I just can't think of the term that would replace it. While it would be nice if it just became witches or wizards, I think more "politically-correct" terms would arise for Muggle-born and pureblood and probably Muggle and half-blood as well.
How well they would catch on is another story.
Did people still cling to the concept of blood purity even if the language disappeared?
Most assuredly. The same way the words "colored" and "oriental" have fallen out favor but racism remains.
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Post by vegablack on Jul 24, 2009 13:05:27 GMT -5
I wonder about the attitude of the generation who were in Hogwarts during the Carrow year. They had the blood purity ideology drilled into their heads relentlessly by a man who tortured them I wonder if many of them swung wildly the other way and studiously avoided the idea.
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Post by starsea on Jul 25, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -5
Perhaps "Mudblood" was once the normal term for Muggleborns but became less and less acceptable over time. I can see people saying "well, I'm from an ANCIENT family" to emphasise there are no Muggles among their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc. People might end up saying "a little touch of the Muggle" or "a bit ordinary". Totally innocent phrases that could be twisted a certain way.
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Post by vegablack on Jul 25, 2009 20:36:55 GMT -5
I think that makes a lot of sense and our excellent ideas.
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Post by queenie on Aug 11, 2009 1:44:21 GMT -5
I was wondering, why, if Mudblood is supposed to be such a foul term for Muggleborns, why we never hear an equivalent term directed at Muggles themselves. My idea is that it's either so foul it's never used in the text - like the f- word or the c- word, or that the word Muggle by itself is seen as a slur by the Malfoyesques, leaving any other word obsolete.
But I still felt the need to coin such a word, and for inspiration I turned to one of my favorite poems, "The Congo: A Study of the Negro Race," by Vachel Lindsey. It's one of my favorites, but not one that I can ever pick up to read aloud at a poetry slam or anything. It doesn't go over that well.
Well, the very first line of it is, "Fat black bucks in a wine-barrel room..." So I took that and added Mud, making "Mudbuck," a word for a Muggle man. Pulling off of it, you get Mudcow, for a woman, and Mudcalf or Mudbrat for a child.
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Post by starsea on Aug 13, 2009 15:13:43 GMT -5
I was wondering, why, if Mudblood is supposed to be such a foul term for Muggleborns, why we never hear an equivalent term directed at Muggles themselves. My idea is that it's either so foul it's never used in the text - like the f- word or the c- word, or that the word Muggle by itself is seen as a slur by the Malfoyesques, leaving any other word obsolete. I think it's because even the Death Eaters don't have a problem with Muggles so much as Muggles "pretending" to be wizards. But I like your idea of making them into animals. |
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Post by vegablack on Aug 13, 2009 19:52:31 GMT -5
The Death Eaters do have problems with Muggles. Voldemort mentions Lucius history of Muggle torture in GOR. The Death Eaters return in the beginning of GOF is accompanied by the mistreatment of a Muggle family. There are killings referred to storms etc. designed to kill or cause harm to Muggles.
Arthur says of the first war, that they were trying to keep it all from the Muggles only the Muggles were dying too.
I see a lot of signs that the Death Eaters attacked Muggles and hated them, though the Muggle-born wizard was seen as a more immediate threat.
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Post by queenie on Aug 15, 2009 3:31:02 GMT -5
I think it's because even the Death Eaters don't have a problem with Muggles so much as Muggles "pretending" to be wizards. But I like your idea of making them into animals. Great minds must think alike, starsea.  In my Ollivander fanfic I actually make that into a pretty major plot point - I developed an idea that there are two crimes against Wizarding society that are practically archaic but still on the books: One is called Presumption, and the other Despair. Presumption is a Muggle attempting to be a Wizard; Despair is a Wizard trying to give up their magical powers deliberately. Therefore, all the muggleborn wizards on trial for having stole their magic would be condemned as Presumptive Muggles, in my personal canon. It's a not-so-private joke based on something my dad told me: Apparently in the olden days, the Vatican listed Presumption and Despair as two major sins: Presumption was when you relied too heavily on God's mercy and assumed you were going to heaven; Despair was when you did not rely on God's mercy and assumed you were going to hell. Both philosophies would land you in Hell! Don't you love paradoxes? |
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Post by starsea on Aug 16, 2009 13:29:24 GMT -5
The Death Eaters do have problems with Muggles. Voldemort mentions Lucius history of Muggle torture in GOR. The Death Eaters return in the beginning of GOF is accompanied by the mistreatment of a Muggle family. There are killings referred to storms etc. designed to kill or cause harm to Muggles. Arthur says of the first war, that they were trying to keep it all from the Muggles only the Muggles were dying too. I see a lot of signs that the Death Eaters attacked Muggles and hated them, though the Muggle-born wizard was seen as a more immediate threat. I never saw that as Muggle 'hatred' in the same way they hated Muggleborns. I saw that as pure malice and enjoyment in torturing Muggles because they know Muggles can't fight back in any way. Much the same way some people seem to enjoy mistreating animals because they know animals can't do anything about it. queenie, I like those ideas and they definitely make sense in context. |
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Post by vegablack on Aug 22, 2009 14:04:27 GMT -5
Perhaps they think so little of Muggles they dismiss them in the way Dumbledore says Sirius dismissed Kreacher as not having enough importance even to hate.
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Post by starsea on Aug 23, 2009 17:58:51 GMT -5
Perhaps they think so little of Muggles they dismiss them in the way Dumbledore says Sirius dismissed Kreacher as not having enough importance even to hate. I think that's more likely. And Muggles aren't even useful in the way that house elves are. They're just dumb cattle. |
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Post by vegablack on Aug 26, 2009 11:37:41 GMT -5
I was rereading the Tales of Beedle The Bard and in Dumbledore's introduction to the Wizard and the Hopping Pot I found the epithet Muggle pig-men given by Brutus Malfoy for Muggles.
I think that sort of nonhuman type term is what is used to disparage Muggles.
The words for Wizards interested in Muggles are Mudwallower, Dunglicker and Scumsucker, so I think the simple epithets of Dung, and Scum are probably used as well.
I think Dumbledore's introduction to the Hopping Pot story can probably be taken as a sign that many wizards held a bitter hatred for muggles and despised them.
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Post by starsea on Aug 30, 2009 15:23:35 GMT -5
I was rereading the Tales of Beedle The Bard and in Dumbledore's introduction to the Wizard and the Hopping Pot I found the epithet Muggle pig-men given by Brutus Malfoy for Muggles. I think that sort of nonhuman type term is what is used to disparage Muggles. The words for Wizards interested in Muggles are Mudwallower, Dunglicker and Scumsucker, so I think the simple epithets of Dung, and Scum are probably used as well. I think Dumbledore's introduction to the Hopping Pot story can probably be taken as a sign that many wizards held a bitter hatred for muggles and despised them. Perhaps in the years after the Statute of Secrecy, there was great hatred for Muggles, due to the witch hunting craze that swept Europe at this time and the danger this held for very young magical children. However, the time of the HP stories, I don't see the magical population hating Muggles in this way (not even the Death Eaters). |
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Post by birdg on Aug 31, 2009 9:52:38 GMT -5
Eh, I think it's clear there's a general disdain for Muggles from the way they're described in the The Daily Prophet to the way even people like the Weasleys think of Muggle medicine.
Also, I think the Death Eaters do hate Muggles - they create Muggleborns and they're the ones the wizarding populace has to hide from. It must burn to have to hide from a people you consider your inferior. They'd be seen as a constant and encroaching threat to the wizarding populace.
And in my fics, I tend to go into how the influence of Muggle culture has changed wizarding culture and threatens to change it even more as a reason why there's a widespread anti-Muggle prejudice. That's based a lot on the details JKR gives us as we can see Muggles have influenced their clothing (it would appear most wizards do not wear robes 24/7), their language (cool) and their forms of communication (newspapers, radio, books) and so on. And also the simple fact that with a constant influx of Muggle-borns they'll be bringing Muggle-born culture and beliefs with them.
So, yes, I think wizards hate Muggles.
Also, I think the term "Mudblood" is used interchangeably towards Muggles and Muggle-borns though it's mostly associated with the latter. I've noticed that Death Eater types also tend to refer to Muggle-borns as "Muggles".
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Post by vegablack on Sept 2, 2009 0:33:21 GMT -5
What is hatred and what is prejudice all becomes supject to arguments. Malfoy thought a story where a Muggle married a Witch was dangerous enough want it removed from the Hogwarts library. Dumbledore claims in the Tales of Beedle the Bard that some Wizard children still only know the altered version of the Wizard and the Hopping Pot and are shocked by the true version. Whether this is hatred, disdain or biggotry certainly Muggles are held in enough derision that some wizards sustain similar atittudes to those racists hold round the world:
Marriage between muggles and witches (not merely purebloods) must be unspeakable. Stories that portray muggles well or show wizards consorting with them normally must be surpressed and rewritten. Stories must make them look foolish, incompetent and dangerous.
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Post by birdg on Sept 25, 2009 14:58:19 GMT -5
I mentioned in another thread that wizards don't seem to do that whole "trial-by-jury-of-your-peers" thing. They also don't seem to have suffrage - from everything we hear, the Minister of Magic is appointed by the Wizenmagot rather than elected by the populace.
In my fics I want to explore the idea that part of the reason Muggles are feared/hated/disdained is out of fear that the constant influx of Muggle-borns will bring with them notions about societal equality and democratic elections that would further threaten the ruling elite. I imagine Hermione - with all her ideals and beliefs on how things should - is the embodiment of why Muggle-borns need to be eliminated.
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Post by vegablack on Dec 17, 2009 12:27:02 GMT -5
Those are interesting ideas Birdg. (Why I never responded to this before is beyond me.) If you look at the timing of events, Voldemort becomes really commited to his horcruxes etc. after the fall of Grindewald which appears to correspond with the rise of Labor party in the UK. Then the war starts eleven years before Lily's death that corresponds with 1970 and the whole movement at that time: in Europe you had major student rebellions, the most famous being Paris 1968 where the students brought down the government and called a general strike, the rise of Feminism, youth culture, drug culture, the civil rights movement all came to a head at that time.
Muggleborns would have seemed especially threatening, because unless they erased all contact with family, they had to be aware of all of this. There isn't a muggleborn in the world at that time who wouldn't have heard of the rolling stones, the Beattles white album, Hippies, etc.
Some of what they were bringing in would have been very threatening.
That isn't behind Voldemorts thinking of course, but would have influenced sympathisers. The whole we need these thugs to protect us from dangerous elements. (I incorporate that a bit into my version of Frank and Alice's lives. The timing is perfect. I have a story that involves some Bob Dylan songs and reaction to them -- the wheel still in spin and the first shall be last and the last first imagery which is very threatening to some purebloods.)
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In my Ollivander fanfic I actually make that into a pretty major plot point - I developed an idea that there are two crimes against Wizarding society that are practically archaic but still on the books: One is called Presumption, and the other Despair. Presumption is a Muggle attempting to be a Wizard; Despair is a Wizard trying to give up their magical powers deliberately. Therefore, all the muggleborn wizards on trial for having stole their magic would be condemned as Presumptive Muggles, in my personal canon.