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Luna
Jul 19, 2009 11:31:44 GMT -5
Post by vegablack on Jul 19, 2009 11:31:44 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the depiction of Luna as always serene and calm and wise and about the times in canon when she is otherwise. Very rarely do people talk about her irritation and anger at Hermione when she questions her beliefs nor do they talk about her dismissal of Hagrid as being a bit of a joke.
What do you think this shows us about her character?
Hagrid loves magical creatures like she does, yet she has little interest in him. I imagine that she can't get past his flaws as a teacher and thinker. Do you think this is the source of JKR's statement that she and Neville would not fancy each other. Would Luna have patience for the kid who blew up his cauldrons in potions. Would they be friends if they had shared classes? (I think it is obvious that they are friends now. But does this quality of Luna's keep them from having a closer relationship and does it survive because they don't share classes?)
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Luna
Jul 19, 2009 12:43:26 GMT -5
Post by birdg on Jul 19, 2009 12:43:26 GMT -5
I see Luna as being as rigid and even as arrogant about her beliefs/her expectations as someone like Hermione. She and Hermione really are foils for each other. And I wonder if that's not at least a little bit of the reason she was so picked on in her own house. Being a weird kid will get you negative attention, yes, but being the weird kid who also is dismissive of others (even it's not in an overt or very mean way)? That'll get your stuff stolen.
Like others have said, she will tell people what she sees to be the truth like saying Hagrid isn't very good at the whole teaching gig. I think whether or not Hagrid is a bad teacher is subjective. (Is he really any worse than Snape or McGonagall? I think they're all pretty faily.) Or do students feel more free to criticize him because they don't see him as being as intelligent as the other two and not a real teacher in the way the other two are.
The problem with her truth-telling is no one ever really asks for her opinion but by God, she's going to give it. It's not done maliciously, no, but there's definitely a child-like arrogance and cruelty to that.
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Luna
Jul 19, 2009 13:56:32 GMT -5
Post by starsea on Jul 19, 2009 13:56:32 GMT -5
Being a weird kid will get you negative attention, yes, but being the weird kid who also is dismissive of others (even it's not in an overt or very mean way)? That'll get your stuff stolen. Sorry, but this sounds like you think Luna's stuff disappearing is her own fault, and it's not. No matter how stubborn or dismissive she is, her things should not be stolen from her. People took her stuff to try and make her upset, to try and make her react. We don't know that Luna was dismissive of her fellow Ravenclaws' opinions. It may be that she simply refused to recant her beliefs when threatened ("Say your father's a liar", "say you're a liar") and they punished her for it. Bullies will be bullies no matter how accomodating you are. Objectively, Hagrid does not have the qualifications for teaching that McGonagall and Snape do. He did not finish his magical education. He was unfairly expelled but there it is, that's the truth. He also has a bias towards large and dangerous creatures which can endanger his students. (I don't count Buckbeak among those, Hagrid gave them fair warning about Hippogriff pride, but I do count the Blast-Ended Skrewts, which Hagrid created himself without thinking about the consequences). Snape may have 'failed' as a Potions teacher but there's no evidence that he was a bad DADA teacher. Why do you think McGonagall 'fails'? Cruelty? Can you provide examples of where you think Luna is cruel in stating her opinion?
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Luna
Jul 19, 2009 17:15:04 GMT -5
Post by birdg on Jul 19, 2009 17:15:04 GMT -5
I never said it was so maybe you shouldn't assume anything?
But if other kids perceive her as being hostile to them they will react in a hostile manner. It does not mean they are right to do so just that's how people are.
The entire fiasco with how they intended to protect Gryffindor students from Sirius Black by making them in charge of the passwords and then getting angry at Neville when that brilliant security failed? That would be a good start.
Also, she was only slightly more subtle about who her favorites were (Harry, whom she gave a broom to and Hermione, whom she allowed to have a Time-Turner at the age of 13) than Snape was.
As for Hagrid's subject being dangerous - most things in the Wizarding world are dangerous and no one seems to care. Despite how dangerous it was and how bad of a teacher he supposedly was the worst that ever happened was Draco Malfoy getting hurt by Buckbeak and the Skrewts getting loose and only the latter was Hagrid's fault for breeding the stupid things in the first place. How many times did a cauldron explode in Snape's class?
Come to think of it, the only teacher-type people that we saw in the books that didn't have their share of bad traits and shortcomings were Sprout and Flitwick.
It's not in stating her opinion and I never said it was so to frame your statement as such is a misdirection. It's how and what she says.
How is it not cruel to call someone else cruel (like she did about Ron), to say they're not a good teacher (about Hagrid), to call someone close-minded (like she did about Hermione)? Luna was always very willing to share her criticisms of people whenever she felt like it. Some people will find that refreshing, other people will find it off-putting. While I don't have a problem with it there's definitely a certain amount of arrogance and - if not cruelty - disregard for the feelings of others to do so.
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Luna
Jul 19, 2009 22:05:23 GMT -5
Post by vegablack on Jul 19, 2009 22:05:23 GMT -5
Well Hermione does call Pansy Parkinson a cow, but she wasn't talking to one of her friends.
Luna is insensitive, and makes personal observations about people to their face or to their friends. Telling Harry that his date, Padma hadn't had a good time with him was bad enough, but telling him in front of other people could have been humiliating and that is thoughtlessly cruel in a childish way. I could see some people might be afraid of what observations Luna might make about them in front of their peers, that the observations were true would only make them more painful not less.
Hagrid is a bad teacher, first because he moves through the curriculum without rhyme or reason, starting with hypogryphs seems eccentric, and because most of the students appear to be afraid in his class. He isn't teaching them to be comfortable handling these creatures. But he understands the animals and calling him a joke implies he has no worth as a teacher at all. (I thought it was interesting that that was the general opinion in Ravenclaw. They had little patience to see beyond his bad teaching.)
Luna is often portrayed as especially caring and she was compassionate to Mr. Olivander, but she is also extremely insensitive to others feelings. Maybe she has had to live with so much teasing that she is used to it and expects others to be as thick skinned as she is.
She does strike me as immature and childlike. Perhaps by the time we see her seventh year she has matured and become more aware of the effect she has on others. (I can't remember her saying any hurtful or outrageous things seventh year.)
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Luna
Jul 20, 2009 0:40:20 GMT -5
Post by queenie on Jul 20, 2009 0:40:20 GMT -5
The entire fiasco with how they intended to protect Gryffindor students from Sirius Black by making them in charge of the passwords and then getting angry at Neville when that brilliant security failed? That would be a good start. Also, she was only slightly more subtle about who her favorites were (Harry, whom she gave a broom to and Hermione, whom she allowed to have a Time-Turner at the age of 13) than Snape was. As for Hagrid's subject being dangerous - most things in the Wizarding world are dangerous and no one seems to care. Despite how dangerous it was and how bad of a teacher he supposedly was the worst that ever happened was Draco Malfoy getting hurt by Buckbeak and the Skrewts getting loose and only the latter was Hagrid's fault for breeding the stupid things in the first place. How many times did a cauldron explode in Snape's class? All the instances you name relating to McGonagall name her flaws as a Head of House, which would mean nothing to Luna, not as a Transfiguration teacher, at which I believe we are to understand that she is very good. I seem to remember that cauldrons tended to melt in Snape's class, and that students were held responsible if their brews melted their cauldrons, or smoked off their eyebrows, or if it spilled and hurt them (a la Neville and the potion to cure boils way back in book one). Both Slughorn and Snape seemed to hold this attitude. For more, we should turn to the Teachers at Hogwarts discussion. I feel that I should mention that Luna didn't know that Hagrid was a particular friend of the Trio's when she was dismissing him. He's probably not much of a favorite in Ravenclaw, and while he seems to be a friend to any of the students who needs a friend, he is a particular friend of the Trio's. Also, Care of Magical Creatures is what Luna would grow up to devote her life to, and it seems that she was expressing an interest in it even in school. So it's understandable that she would be annoyed to have it be taught by an inadequate teacher, who wouldn't do proper justice to the subject in her eyes. Luna may not seem to pay attention in conversation, but she is probably a very focused student when she wants to be - I wouldn't be surprised if she has at least the headlines of all the Quibbler articles from the past five years memorized. Also, a minor note on her father: my pet theory is that he legally changed his name from something much more mundane to Xenophilius Lovegood. Because what kind of parents would name a child Xenophilius? Literally, Lover of the Strange? It could only come from parents who would share his worldview, and somehow he makes me think of someone who rebelled against his parents and so gave himself the most fitting and happy name he could imagine.
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Luna
Jul 20, 2009 11:26:41 GMT -5
Post by starsea on Jul 20, 2009 11:26:41 GMT -5
The entire fiasco with how they intended to protect Gryffindor students from Sirius Black by making them in charge of the passwords and then getting angry at Neville when that brilliant security failed? That would be a good start. But that's to do with being the Head of Gryffindor, not the Transfiguration teacher. Also, McGonagall never played favourites in her lessons like Snape did. I also have a theory that she allowed Hermione to have a Time Turner in order that Hermione learn she couldn't do EVERYTHING. Or maybe that was what Dumbledore suggested, more his style. Okay, I apologise, I didn't mean to create a misdirection. This is what Luna says about Ron: "He says very funny things sometimes, doesn't he? But he can be a bit unkind. I noticed that last year." Now I'm a Ron fan and I think 'a bit unkind' is a MASSIVE understatement! Ron can be extremely (and deliberately) hurtful. It's actually what Luna leaves UNsaid here which is most telling. Hagrid WASN'T a good teacher, certainly not at first. He had bags of enthusiasm but no idea of how to handle a class, especially as Dumbledore dropped him in at the deep end. He was also erratic and his lessons hung on his emotions (much like Snape). We don't know how Luna acted in Hagrid's lessons. She could have sniggered behind her hand like the other Ravenclaws, but I can't see her laughing so much as wondering if she should bother doing the work. Please could you point me to where Luna calls Hermione 'close-minded'? I don't doubt that she did call her that, but I'm having trouble trawling through OotP.
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Luna
Jul 20, 2009 13:14:37 GMT -5
Post by vegablack on Jul 20, 2009 13:14:37 GMT -5
The problem with Luna's statements is that they are unanswerable in normal conversation. When she says that Padma went to the dance with Harry but didn't have a good time. What is Harry's answer supposed to be? Send her my apologies? Is he supposed to complain about her in turn or defend himself? More likely he'll just stand there in embarrassed silence.
I think cruel is too strong a word, but these aren't pleasant conversations to have, and especially not in front of people, or with someone you don't know very well.
How is Harry supposed to answer the statement that his friend is unkind? Offer an apology for him?
After he got used to the conversations he found them amusing, but in the beginning they were obviously disconcerting. For someone more self-conscious and less used to scrutiny than Harry they might have been more painful.
Perhaps there's a reason that Luna is sitting alone.
I'm not defending the way her housemates treat her at all. There's never a reason to attack someone or steal from them and her social isolation within her house probably adds to her awkwardness when dealing with people.
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