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Post by Ilene Bones on Apr 5, 2009 22:08:41 GMT -5
I thought to stir things up a bit since it seems there are many intepretations of this relationship, and it can be very controversial. A lot of the initial opinions I read post-DH seemed to be colored mostly by whether you liked Severus Snape or not. People who liked Snape seemed to accept that his feelings for Lily were real and loving, though unrequited. People who disliked Snape, however, tended to see his actions as creepy, stalkerish, etc. And where Lily was concerned, it seemed many Snape fans thought she was in the wrong to terminate the friendship, while Snape critics thought she was perfectly justified.
So, now that (hopefully) we have had time to think it over, what do you think about the relationship between "Sev" Snape and Lily Evans? Were Snape's feelings healthy or not? What did you think of Rowling's comment that Lily could have loved Snape romantically if not for the Dark Arts issue? Also, do you think Snape's motivations for turning over a new leaf were just based on his Lily-obsession, or did they eventually become more noble than that?
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Post by starsea on Apr 7, 2009 13:36:58 GMT -5
Hi, Ilene! To deal with your questions in order: I think the friendship between Severus and Lily is one of the most tragic relationships in the series, a big "what if". I can understand why Jo said that Lily could have loved him if he'd chosen a different path, but I was also a bit... disturbed? Mainly because that seemed to undermine the James/Lily relationship. We saw more of the Severus/Lily friendship than James and Lily, and they were Harry's parents. Yes, we have Remus's word that James grew up, but that's it. It seems like we're just supposed to take their relationship (a relationship so important that it produced the hero of the series) on trust. (You feel the same way about the H/G relationship and I can see why.) I think Snape's feelings started out healthy, yes. But I also think that Lily was always a symbol of something better for him, and over time, he put her on a pedestal, made her into this perfect woman, who would understand and forgive everything. He also seems to have had a mental block concerning Lily, in that he couldn't understand why she was upset about him hanging around with proto-Death Eaters and bullying Muggleborns, because it was "nothing to do with her", she was "different". In the beginning, in the aftermath of Lily's death, I believe that Snape's motivation was to make amends and find salvation. I think it was only later, much later, that he actually began to think about what she'd stood for and understand that his actions had been wrong.
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Post by kelleypen on Apr 7, 2009 17:51:57 GMT -5
Severus thought he and Lily were more than they were. But since Severus was the first magical person Lily met, she was loyal to him and refused to see the bad side of him. I don't know if they had ever kissed . . . it is possible. Male female best friends do try that sometimes. But I think Lily saw Severus with gratitude first, perhaps pity later. Since they were both so renowned in potions, I can see it as likely they worked together. I wish I coould see Lily's potions book.
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Post by queenie on Apr 7, 2009 21:36:52 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I decide that I should devote more thought/contemplation to the Severus/Lily friendship. Losing the love of one's life is one thing, but, I think, enough people avoid it. However, losing a close friend because of a misunderstanding - that's a much more widespread heartbreak. I know I've felt it. In a way, it's almost as if Severus drove Lily away because he was too invested in her - it reminds me of the several times when Ron and Hermione drove each other away, leaving Harry to mediate between them. Or when Harry and Ron stopped speaking to each other, and Hermione had to mediate. Or... the Trio has broken up, but they've alwasy gotten back because they're a trio. A toothsome twosome may feel more intimate, but it lacks a - a safety net, I guess you could say. I agree with this. It really undermines a relationship that is mostly abstract to begin with. I almost feel like, when the J/L relationship is that abstract, it's not really JKR's place to undermine it, to say, "Well, it could have been Snape." I feel like it's more the fan's place. I mean, JKR could say, "With stronger communication, Hermione might have fallen in love with Krum," because the Ron/Hermione relationship is strong enough to withstand speculation. I understand that in JKR's mind the James/Lily ship is probably rock-solid, but -- in the books, it's less so. Hoorah for a post that's more Lily/James than Lily/Severus. Oh well.
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Post by birdg on Apr 7, 2009 22:49:58 GMT -5
I didn't see it that way. I just saw it as JKR acknowledging one of the many possible routes Lily's life could have taken. It would be the same if she said Harry could have been sorted in Slytherin, it doesn't make him any less of a Gryffindor. Heh, well she did say that but it was Harry that Hermione could have fallen in love with, not Krum. That was a fun day on the interwebz. I agree wholeheartedly with this. Also, I think some of his fixation with her later on has to do with being partly responsible for her death. If he had never told Voldemort about the prophecy, Lily might have lived. Also, I have to say I like Snape (well, as a character, not so much as person), like the unrequited Snape/Lily and I think his love for Lily was real but his actions were still creepy. Oh, and Lily was 100% right to terminate the friendship. Snape wasn't anywhere close to changing and it only took her death for him to do so.
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Post by Ilene Bones on Apr 8, 2009 14:39:33 GMT -5
Great replies! Personally, while I also find Snape to be a fascinating character I am not sure he really ever loved Lily for her own self, as a flawed, real human being. I agree with starsea that Snape did put Lily up on a pedestal and saw her as an ideal woman, a symbol of all that was good and worthy, and this seems to have been the case even when he first sees her in the playground. Certainly, after Lily's death this is what she would have become, if not in life. There is some parallel to the Gatsby/Daisy relationship except that Daisy was more like Narcissa, a symbol of elite prestige and wealth, the social class Gatsby aspired to, as well as a desirable woman in her own right. Lily 's symbolism was more about what was pure and good.
I personally think that Snape did eventually truly repent and turn his back on the Dark Lord, even though he may still have an affinity for Dark Arts. Snape's use of Sectumsempra to save Lupin really illustrates this; he uses a Curse he has referred to before as Dark Magic, yet he does so to save a man who he has in the past treated with contempt at best, anger and hatred at worst.
For some reason, I didn't think of Rowling's comment as denigrating the Lily/James relationship at all, though I agree with those who wish it had been better developed. It is easy to see Snape and James as competing for Lily's hand, and the Worst Memory being so to Snape because he lost Lily to James. Those who fault Lily for ending the friendship with Snape often seem to see the situation as this kind of contest, but I don't agree. We know Lily and James did not actually date until 7th year (at least a full year after the Worst Memory). So it's not that Lily dumped Snape and immediately went off to run into James Potter's arms.
queenie, I agree that Snape's loss was doubly sad because he lost his best friend, not just a possible romance. Also, I think it's possible to idolize a friend into a symbol, as well. (Thinking of Gene and Phineas in A Separate Peace.) Your comment reminded me a friend I had in HS who I grew apart from in college -- someone I often think of trying to reconcile with, she works with the school alumni organization so I could reach her through them. Yet it just seems too late at this point.
Which makes me wonder: If Snape and Lily are reunited behind the Veil, what do you think might happen? Would they resume their friendship? Would Lily forgive Snape since he repented, or would she now be angry with him because of how he treated Harry?
Here's another question. I have wondered what would have happened if Lily didn't die, and hence Snape did not feel the guilt of her death as well as regret over losing her. Would Snape have eventually got over Lily and found someone who loved him back? Or was he doomed to always love Lily alone? For this is the part of the story I do find a little unrealistic, suitable for a children's book's conception of romance, but not a mature adult's. Though many of Snape's actions (such as tearing up the photo of Lily's family) indicate he never fully matured anyway.
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Post by starsea on Apr 8, 2009 18:00:06 GMT -5
I didn't see it that way. I just saw it as JKR acknowledging one of the many possible routes Lily's life could have taken. It would be the same if she said Harry could have been sorted in Slytherin, it doesn't make him any less of a Gryffindor. Oh no. Whatever she says might have happened, Lily still married James and had his child. That is canon fact. The problem is that the only time we ever see them interact is in Snape's Worst Memory, which doesn't help you to believe in a happy relationship. Whereas we get to see Lily and Snape interact in a variety of different ways in The Prince's Tale, which makes it easier to believe in their friendship and in Snape's later devotion. If Snape and Lily are reunited behind the Veil, what do you think might happen? Would they resume their friendship? Would Lily forgive Snape since he repented, or would she now be angry with him because of how he treated Harry? I think Lily is one of the few people that Snape would not be able to look in the eye. I think she would be maybe a little angry about how he had treated Harry (who is, after all, her son, not just James's!) but I think she would have forgiven him for what he did. I can't see Snape ever getting over Lily, frankly. He was too fixated on her and too resentful of James. If he'd let go of that, what would he have left? Snape and Sirius are very alike in that they are both emotionally stuck at twenty years old.
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Post by pigwithhair on Apr 8, 2009 19:00:37 GMT -5
JKR was pretty clear about Severus. His Patronus was a "silver doe" because of his love for her, she was his happiest memory, so I can't see how anything "stalker-ish" can be derived. I mean he knew her, they were friends with real affection on both sides, but she couldn't accept his choices and thought the worse of him for them.
If Snape could go back in time, knowing what he knows by the end of DH, would he have made the choice to become a Death Eater and follow Voldemort? HBP tells us he wouldn't since he does everything to keep Harry safe for Lily, and works against Voldemort and everything he once believed so strongly in.
He's a fascinating character.
Lily made good character choices while her friend did not. I thought her choice was a logical one, and struck me as difficult for her.
To address your questions specifically: "healthy" is an interesting choice of words. He loved her and would do anything for her; he put his own life constantly on the line to save her son. I can't say that's unhealthy; his story is tragic. I thought Rowling's comment made sense. Lily loved Severus until she felt she no longer knew him because of his choices to follow the Dark Arts. Had he not, it's just as possible she could have fallen in love with him as not. Your last question is answered in HBP: Snape went to Dumbledore because of Lily. It was his affection for her that changed him. He was brave, working for one side while being as close to Voldemort as he was. And at the very end, the last thing he thought of was Lily.
It's too bad he chose to be such a sadistric and cruel teacher. He took his bitterness out on others.
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Post by Chocolatepot on Apr 10, 2009 20:35:20 GMT -5
I'm always between extremes. I don't think the Snape/Lily friendship was exactly a healthy one, based as it was on Lily being Snape's exception to Muggleborns/Muggles, Gryffindors, &c. but I don't think it was that stalkerish. He was definitely a toxic Nice Guy.
I do go absolutely rageful when Snapefen say that it was wrong of Lily to react the way she did to Snape's insult, because he was just surprised in the heat of the moment. There's more than just simple anger behind shouting a racial slur at your best friend.
I don't take the "could have" as meaning too much, because it doesn't mean too much. The whole Death Eater movement was seriously important to Snape - it's like saying that Hermione could have been in love with Harry if it weren't for his attachment to Quidditch. (Bad analogy, sorry.) I don't think the statement has too much bearing on the perception of James/Lily, because the amount of friendship we saw between Snape and Lily in HBP already did the damage. We probably could have done with seeing a bit more J/L in canon.
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Post by Author By Night on Apr 11, 2009 7:56:11 GMT -5
I think that it's a very, very complicated situation. Let me try and explain.
I think the Snape we see in the books - who verbally abuses his students (yes, I consider it verbal abuse), who was a Death Eater at one point - is different from the Snape who was friends with Lily. Not in the sense that he had two personalities a la Jekyll and Hyde, but in the sense that they choose very different paths that led them to be who they became.
But there was always a part of Snape who knew he'd loved Lily, who still loved Lily seconds before dying. It wasn't present enough to make him a better person, but it was present enough to allow him to have Lily as his Patronus, and to allow him to tell Harry the truth before he died. I also believe that this is the part of Snape Albus Severus is named after.
I agree with Queenie that it definitely is one of those tragic friendships. I don't think there's anything stalkery about it at all - I can see why some fans take it that way, but I really don't see it.
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Post by kelleypen on Apr 11, 2009 12:38:33 GMT -5
Maybe it did make him a better person, Amy. What would he have become without loving her? As bad as Snape is, we are getting the 'It's a Wonderful Life' version. . . . had Lily never become his friend? Had he never loved her? Snape might have become the meanest most heartless Death Eater ever . . . never helped Dumbledore, never saved Harry, it would have meant the ruin of more than Snape.
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Post by siriusgirl on Apr 19, 2009 11:28:58 GMT -5
I think Snape did border a bit on obsession with Lily. I agree that he completely had her on a pedestal separate from other mudggle borns, and didn't get why she'd object to that. That's the main downfall.
Lily had known Snape for a while, she did stay friends with him even after he started to subscribe to death eater philosophy. I have seen some Lily bashing about her ending her friendship with Snape, and it's always annoyed me because Snape crossed a line. He called her an offensive term. It's like if you called a black friend the N-word and said it slipped out and said I didn't call you that. Come on, people!
I agree, ending the friendship was difficult, but the only thing she felt she cuold do. She couldn't become friends with this New Snape.
Snape wanted to save Lily but thought didn't care about saving James or Harry. I think Dumbledore was right to call him out on that. It's messed up thinking, but Snape was a complicated character. And well, that's part of his own appeal, he may not be likeable but I don't hate him now.
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Post by starsea on Apr 19, 2009 18:13:48 GMT -5
Lily had known Snape for a while, she did stay friends with him even after he started to subscribe to death eater philosophy. I have seen some Lily bashing about her ending her friendship with Snape, and it's always annoyed me because Snape crossed a line. He called her an offensive term. It's like if you called a black friend the N-word and said it slipped out and said I didn't call you that. Come on, people! That's one of my pet peeves, too. Lily remained friends with Snape for a long time, even when all her friends were asking her why she was friends with him, even when she could see what he was doing and where he was heading. Maybe she thought she could stop him, could help him, but I think that she saw him differently, too. She didn't have him on a pedestal but I think she still saw him as that skinny little boy who opened up the magical world for her, her vulnerable friend from the broken home. And when Snape called her 'Mudblood', he destroyed that image, he tore the scales from her eyes and made her see what he'd become. Exactly. He wasn't the Severus she'd met at ten years old and she wasn't the Lily he'd met then, either. He'd gone so far down the path, she couldn't go with him any more.
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Post by siriusgirl on May 5, 2009 12:06:50 GMT -5
EXACTLY, Starsea! I think you raise some excellent points. I think we tend to see people as we remember them. Lily knew Severus as the skinny, neglected boy she knew, it was hard for her to see the aspiring death eater until that day. I'm all for friendship first, I'm a hufflepuff so all loyalty and fairness. BUT if someone I knew was all excited about joining the Mafia or Hell's Angels, I couldn't go with him no matter how long we were friends. Snape is NOT the total victim . Being a friend does not mean following them when they're becoming this dangerous person. I dont worry to much about what could have been. Key is COULD not WOULD or SHOULD. I also don't htink we should judge James/Lily based on what we saw because they were kids then! I mean look at Ron and Hermione, they didn't like each other at frist and end up marrying. James grew up.
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Rugi
Third Year
Norberta's Chief Cook and Librarian
Posts: 33
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Post by Rugi on May 5, 2009 17:29:49 GMT -5
I'm all for friendship first, I'm a hufflepuff so all loyalty and fairness. BUT if someone I knew was all excited about joining the Mafia or Hell's Angels, I couldn't go with him no matter how long we were friends. Snape is NOT the total victim . Being a friend does not mean following them when they're becoming this dangerous person. Amen to that. Though I think I'd go even farther and argue that one is being a very bad friend if one supports a friend when they are doing things that are evil, wrong, and hurtful. If they can't tell (or don't care) that something they are doing is wrong, how will they ever figure it out if their friends don't confront them? How will they see if there are no consequences to what they do?
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Post by vegablack on May 5, 2009 21:49:02 GMT -5
"Also, do you think Snape's motivations for turning over a new leaf were just based on his Lily-obsession, or did they eventually become more noble than that?"
I think we can guess that Snape's motivations became more noble by the time Dumbledore askes Snape to kill him and begins to let him in on the plans concerning Harry. In the Deathly Hallows pensieve scene he tells Dumbledore that the only people he watched die anymore were those that he couldn't save. This statement along with the fact that he wouldn't allow Phineas to call Hermione a Mudblood signals to me a mature conscience. (Though the mudblood remark could simply be about his pain over Lily.) The comment about watching people die is particularly poignant since he had to watch Charity Burbage a colleague calling on him for help, die in the first chapter of the Deathly Hallows. I thought of that scene when I read the remark and I pitied Snape and the awful role he had to play for Dumbledore.
I would add though that Dumbledore's question that precipitated the remark is an interesting one. He asks Snape how many people did he watch die. To me this implies that Snape's time as a Death Eater was not a passive one. Dumbledore believes and I think knows that Snape participated in some killings. He watched people die as a Death Eater. It was meant as a jibe and a reminder of what Snape was. I think this puts Lily's decisions in the proper light. She was fleeing someone who was beginning a life of murder. And murder of people like herself. However Snape felt about her, no reader should overlook that truth. He was willing to hurt people just like her.
I think we are meant to see Lilly's leaving Snape and marrying the order as leaving darkness and seeking light. She left a boy who was joining the Death Eaters. She would marry a man who would join the Order with her. As to the strenghth of their marriage while I believe in it, I don't think it was important to the story. We are shown her happy life with her child and her and James shared commitment to Harry. That and her commitment to the values of the Order are what matter to the story. Their romantic lives while interesting to fans don't effect the story one bit. Lilly died because she rebelled three times against Voldemort and because she defended Harry. That's why JKR doesn;t spend much time on the relationship itself. She had enough to talk about while covering what she needed for the story.
James and Lilly face at barely twenty having a baby, while fighting for their lives and against evil. They appear to be happy and cheerful while trapped alone together while in hiding to save their baby's lives. If that isn't a sign of a mature love then I don't know what is.
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Post by siriusgirl on Jan 10, 2010 17:01:47 GMT -5
Another question that has popped up is why no one told Harry that Snape and Lily were friends. Aside, from that being needed to be revealed at the end
Well, here are some of my theories It's possible that maybe Sirius and Lupin forgot about that or didn't think of it as being that important anymore. Snape and Lily fell out when they were 15, it's twenty years later, so they may have not thought that was reason. I don't think they knew or realized the extent of Snape's feelings or motives. As for Dumbledore, his "After all this time, Severus?" reveals some surprise, so maybe he also didn't realize after all this time,. Snape still was in love with Lily. Plus, Snape made him promise not to tell so Dumbledore had to keep his word.
Plus, Harry would never believe it. He always thought Snape was evil until TDH.
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Post by siriusgirl on Jul 12, 2010 10:33:05 GMT -5
I think what makes Snape such a hard character to really feel any sympathy for (to me anyway) is not only his bitterness, but also his hypocrisy.
The only reason anyone trusts him is because Dumbledore trusts him (and Dumbledore had a strong reason to trust him), but when Dumbledore extends that kindness to anyone else, especially with Lupin, Snape resents it.
He says Harry is not above the rules. Fair enough BUT when Malfoy (or any Slytherin) does something a lot worse, Snape ignores it.
He claims the Marauders were arrogant (they were) but he wasn't much better, he invented nasty dark spells, and used them, and laughed when his friend used dark magic, calls Muggle-borns "Mudbloods" and when he called Lily that, it was a slip?
Plus, he hates Harry only because Harry is James's son and bullies a student whose parents are incapacitated. What kind of person does that?
That said, the courage he shows throughout the series, his loyalty to Dumbledore and love for Lily combined with his nastiness do make him very interesting. He's not a likeable character to me, but he's intriguing. And it shows one of many things that makes JKR such a strong writer: All her characters act like real people, no one (well except for Voldy, Bellatrix, Umbridge) is wholly bad, and no one is wholly good either. Snape really proves what Sirius said: The world isn't split into good people and death eaters (even if Sirius himself didn't follow it)
I definitely though don't think Lily would be happy with how Snape treated her son. After all, James didn't steal Lily from Snape, Snape lost Lily and it's his own fault
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Post by queenie on Jul 13, 2010 3:09:52 GMT -5
In response to why no one told Harry that Snape was friends with his mother - who was there to tell him? Hagrid speaks as if he knew Lily well, but not as if he knew Snape well. I can see Lily taking time out to visit Hagrid on her own, but Severus declining to visit the groundskeeper. McGonagall might have known, but she and the other profs (including Dumbledore) would have thought it wasn't their place to talk about the private life of a fellow prof.
As for Sirius and Lupin - well, they obviously admired Lily very much. I have a friend in RL with whom I once shared a vicious animosity. Now, we're great friends, but we don't talk - ever - about our past emnity. We buried the hatchet, and part of that is not looking back. Sirius and Lupin were probably quite discomfited by the thought of Snape and Lily's relationship - and they wouldn't have ever known for certain what that relationship was when Lily died, so they can't really say much for certain. At least, that would be Lupin's POV - Sirius probably didn't think it worth mentioning.
Does all that make sense?
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Post by siriusgirl on Jul 13, 2010 12:21:19 GMT -5
Makes perfect sense to me, Queenie. I agree with all the reasons you give. Interesting, that's something Harry doesn't seem to get, judging by how he reacted to what Skeeter wrote about Dumbledore, that somethings are private and out of bounds to students. I definitely think Lupin just didn't feel comfortable talking about it. For what they thought, Lily broke friends with Snape in their fifth year. They wouldn't know Snape still loved Lily all this time.
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