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Post by Author By Night on Feb 10, 2009 17:14:21 GMT -5
It's strange that we saw him in so many different ways throughout the books. In PoA, he was the teacher; in OoTP, sort of a mentor (and Sirius's voice of reason). We didn't see him much in HBP, and in TDH he was apparently going through a hard time.
Now, is it just me, or does it sometimes feel like Remus - along with Tonks - was supposed to get more of a plot? I felt like there was supposed to be more character development. For instance, Remus was very cold and miserable towards Harry in the first few chapters of Deathly Hallows, and then out of the blue decides to attack him. Suddenly, he's begging Harry to be Teddy's Godfather! I felt like we were missing pieces there. We do know that they were taken out of at least one scene in Order of the Phoenix, because of some draft JKR had on her website a few years ago now that included a scribble saying this: "Remus + Tonks."
Something else I really want to know is what Remus was doing in Goblet of Fire. I found it so strange that he never made any contact with Harry - after all, Harry probably needed Remus more than ever at that point, what with the Tournament and everything else. Why didn't Remus at least send Harry a note wishing him luck and giving some advice?
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Post by vegablack on Feb 15, 2009 18:29:23 GMT -5
I think Remus's behavior makes sense if we remember that his lycanpathy (is that the word?) made him a social pariah. We don't see it because we only see how he is treated by the people who love and care for him.
He stays away from Harry because he doesn't want to cause further trouble for him. He pushes and pulls on people because he both wants them around him but fears what being associated with him will do to them.
In the begining of DH he has serious regrets over his marriage not I think because he has doubts about his feelings for Tonks but because he thinks marrying and having children is an irresponsible act for someone like him. He fears he is ruining Tonks's life bringing a doomed child into the world and otherwise creating a mess of suffering. This is made more extreme by his knowledge that Voldemort and his group are coming to power and they are even more biggoted than normal society.
So he is in a complete panic.
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Post by siriusgirl on Feb 15, 2009 21:15:28 GMT -5
Remus is my favourite character but I'm not afraid to admit he is pretty infuriating. His major flaw, as JKR herself said, is that he "likes to be liked" YET at the same time, when he finds people it's like he pushes them away.
I wondered that too sometimes, where Lupin was in GOF. You'd think he'd write to Harry or something? I kinda wished he and Tonks got more story, I really like both characters. (Tonks is a Hufflepuff YAY my house if I was in Hogwarts). I really get mad though at people who say Tonks was selfish or immature to go after Lupin in the final battle, and leave Teddy behind. You don't hear that about James or Lily or Frank and Alice
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Post by vegablack on Feb 15, 2009 23:27:13 GMT -5
I agree with Sirius girl. I felt Tonks had certain responsibilities as a trained Auror to fight, especially since children were fighting.
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Post by siriusgirl on Feb 15, 2009 23:38:34 GMT -5
Exactly! As I say no one says James or Lily or Frank and Alice were selfish and they went and fought. Why is Tonks so selfish? Duty as an Auror and as member of the Order called, and she didn't want to wait while her husband fought
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Post by doriscrockford on Feb 16, 2009 22:18:17 GMT -5
Remus from OotP onward was disappointing for me. After PoA I expected him to be more of a presence in Harry's life; more of an advice-giver. After leaving Hogwarts he did seem to abdicate any kind of responsibility he might have felt toward Harry when he was his teacher, and his complete absence in GoF was bizarre. I thought JKR would have written more for him, seeing as how she gave an interview describing how much she liked him and how she had included him as a reflection of how people treat those with illnesses. I also preferred "After the End"Remus to books 5-7Remus, which is unfortunate.
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Post by vegablack on Feb 16, 2009 22:35:53 GMT -5
I once heard JKR say in an interview that she found it most interesting when a hero had to fight and solve their problems alone. I wonder if JKR had Harry lose Remus and to some extent Sirius in GOF so he would have to face those dangerous challenges without the help and aid of this Defense against the Dark Arts teacher. Even Sirius doesn't arrive until Harry has already faced many of the challenges.
I think that explains Remus's disappearance. I'm sure JKR can come up with a reasonable explanation for Remus being unable to communicate. Probably he felt Harry was better off without being associated with a Werewolf.
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Post by Author By Night on Feb 17, 2009 21:23:40 GMT -5
I can understand the purpose of Harry being alone, I suppose, but Sirius manged to floo... couldn't Remus have managed one letter? I mean, Harry's his best friend's son. Though I agree with you that he might have felt Harry was better off without him...
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Post by vegablack on Feb 18, 2009 1:34:01 GMT -5
Remus's life is a mystery in the books. Why is he so shabby? Where does he sleep and how does he support himself? We are never told other than the fact that he isn't paid well for what ever he does. Is he a complete pariah after he leaves Hogwarts? If the parents don't want him there, where does he work? How widely is his situation known. Where does he transform and where does he get his potion once he leaves. Are we given any indication? Maybe he is living very rough. (I wasn't a part of pre DH fandom. Perhaps these are issues long solved?)
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Post by MWPP on Feb 20, 2009 2:11:10 GMT -5
Fernwithy wrote a companion-to-GoF story that made more sense than a lot of what JKR hasn't told us, where she had Remus infiltrate Fenrir's pack. It is a great read and I'm hoping JKR's backstory is at least half that good.
I think the frustrating part with Remus is that we think more of him than he does. He is forever stuck in that insecure place most people grow out of. We keep seeing him as a powerful wizard who is competent, kind, wise, and so forth, but he doesn't believe that of himself.
On some levels he's so concentrically focused that all he can see in himself is the damaged goods outcast, and he creates a self-fullfilling situation. Sirius had just as fatal of flaws, but he presented himself as "in your face" and "Mr. Suave".... If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS. Remus never did that.
BTW - I firmly believe that Remus was the leader of MWPP. Sirius and James seemed the most obvious/dominant due to their acting out, but Remus controled the group and kept it together. When he's talking with Harry about being made Prefect he almost admits it. Dumbledore expected him to exert his power over J&S (it could be argued that being made Prefect was for Remus' own blossoming, but that's another argument). The key is "expected". The others didn't become animagi out of pity for him, they did it because they wanted to keep up with him.
In some ways it parallels the same aspect as Harry being self-absorbed and oblivious to so much of what is going on. Remus is self-centered and focuses on his inadequacies; Harry misses the point always, until he gets his concentration away from himself to walk into the Forest for the good of the others.
Remus and Sirius are favourites of mine. It is easier to write them than any of the others.
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 22, 2009 0:09:02 GMT -5
Well...yes, in answer to ABN's first question, Lupin's story was changed. He was killed when he wasn't supposed to be. JKR has said that she originally had drafted that Arthur Weasley died of the snake attack in OoftP, but in the end she couldn't do that to Arthur or to Ron, so she saved Arthur but still wanted Harry to lose his father figure, and Remus was the only survivor who knew James well, so...
Wasn't Remus supposed to have spent Harry's fourth and fifth years living with the werewolves, trying to convert some over to Dumbledore's way of thinking? I thought Harry asked him where he'd been all this time during Frosty Christmas in HBP and that's what Lupin said, so I assumed that's where he'd been since leaving Hogwarts at the end of PofA.
That said, it's a good question as to why he didn't contact Harry during the Tournament.
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Post by MWPP on Feb 22, 2009 1:21:30 GMT -5
Has anyone noticed that the wording at the top of the Marauders' Map says "Msrs. Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs" and that is the reverse of the order they die in?
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Post by starsea on Feb 22, 2009 13:22:42 GMT -5
That's a good point, mwpp! Though I always thought that it was ordered like that because Sirius and James were so obviously a pair, Remus is the reason they BECAME Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs, and there's Peter... in the middle and left out.
I think Remus was the only one of the Marauders who actually got to grow up, too early perhaps. Remus learnt a hard lesson early on: some things are inescapable. You can't BS your way out of being a werewolf. It is an incurable, chronic disease. People treat you differently because of it, may be wrong but it's a fact of life. He might not have been so bad if James, Lily and Sirius had survived the first war (no, Sirius didn't die, but he was locked up for twelve years and therefore frozen in time), but he lost his whole support group at a stroke because of Voldemort. His year teaching at Hogwarts was only the beginning of his rehabilitation, and his illness still hampered him badly (Snape used it to force him out). One wonders why Dumbledore actually thought it would be a good idea to send Remus to infiltrate Fenrir's group of werewolves with such low self-esteem... but then Dumbledore wasn't always the best with caring about his army. Most people seem to see Dumbledore as a puppet master, but I think of him more as a chess player: sometimes, you have to sacrifice a piece in order to win the game, and I get a horrible feeling that Remus's self-image was sacrificed, at least in part, as an attempt to win the werewolves over.
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Post by queenie on May 4, 2009 4:48:20 GMT -5
Not very coherent thoughts at this hour, but... Maybe Remus doesn't trust himself to relate emotionally to people if he doesn't know them intimately. Witness in PoA his difficulties at striking up a proper friendship with Harry - moving as if to grip Harry's arm, but stopping himself, cutting short his own toast to a Gryffindor victory by saying, "Not that I should have loyalties..." he's perfectly allowed to have loyalties, but he and Harry toasting together might not be the step he's willing to take. He can be a good teacher, supportive of Neville, willing to play little jokes, but that's all in the realm of teacherdom (and a bit of coolness, which may come with being back at Hogwarts, his old stomping ground, sights of some of the best times of his life.) As we see at the end of Half-Blood Prince, his relationship to Tonks is already in a very tenuous balance. Though he loves her and is obviously able to relate to her as a friend & colleague, he doesn't want to venture into the territory of relating to her as a lover. And then in DH he freaks out at the prospect of taking on a whole host of new relationships - son-in-law to the Tonkses, father, partner in childrearing with Tonks. Of course, every relationship he enters into, the formula is skewed way over* by the factor of him being a werewolf and a danger. However, the people that he's been able to make real relationships with - presumably his parents, the other Marauders, and Dora Tonks - have gone beyond accepting his ailment, to assimilating it. I don't think he has enough time to develop such a close tie with Harry, much as both of them would have liked to. To Harry he may have been one of the best mentors/friends he had (hence the summoning in DH), but to Remus, Harry is still... on the outside. I think Remus is like the extreme form of that person (like me) who will forgo having a large group of cozy friends to a small group of tight friends. This, I think, is why he didn't write during Goblet of Fire. His relationship to Harry as a teacher had already been blown out of the water. What does he have to teach? Ideas on how to avoid upcoming tasks? Advice on girls? No, he'd have to start over in the relationship scale into a whole new formula: relating to Harry as a friend. And he's not ready for that, no-way, no-how. Man didn't even send Harry a birthday card! Of course, it is possible he doesn't own an owl. Or can't rent one. * www.xkcd.com/55/
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Post by vegablack on Jun 9, 2009 18:37:36 GMT -5
I read a post on a an LJ that was very critical of Remus. It's asked why anyone was shocked that Remus wanted to run off and abandon Tonks when running away has been what Remus has done throughout the books.
Now, I am extremely fond of Remus and I find that remark harsh, unfair and bitter to say the least, but I did think the poster had a point. I didn't find Remus's behavior in the Deathly Hallows surprising or out of character when I saw it. It did seem in keeping with his past behavior. Remus did tend to "freeze" and retreat when he encountered moral challenges. He can't challenge his fellow marauders when they are attacking Snape. He sees them and has to pretend he doesn't. (The Remus critic of the last paragraph was I believe a Snape fan.) He can't tell Dumbledore about Sirius's animagi abilities because he can't bring himself to admit to Dumbledore that he had deceived him all those years ago. When the word leaked out that he was a Werewolf he left himself rather than waiting to see if he could fight to keep his place. (Arguably an act of courage similar to a black man in the past fighting to attend a Segregated University or gain a job in a Racist environment.)
I'm not saying his character is badly written, on the contrary the ability to make us love a flawed character is the sign of a good novelist.
I'm not saying that Remus is weak, cowardly or evil. He died fighting Voldemort and went underground with werewolves. I'm saying he has flaws in his character that became apparent under the stress of the war and the hatred and danger his presence brought on the people he loved.
I think this trait is understandable in a person who had to be chained up alone once a month as a child to protect those he loved from himself. He saw himself as someone others needed to be protected from, someone who needed to hide his shame rather than carry a flag for a cause. And he did need to be liked and thus he repeatedly ran rather than confront disapproval and moral conflict.
He was also kind, understanding, forgiving and a wonderful teacher.
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Post by Author By Night on Jun 14, 2009 6:41:10 GMT -5
Vega, I think you have a very valid point that he wasn't completely out of character. Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned how much they liked the Remus in a fanfic called "After the End" - I haven't finished that fanfic, but I agree completely that the way Arabella and Zsenya wrote Remus was wonderful.
I think a lot of people wrote Remus that way; a kind, confident man. And sure, we see that in him a little in PoA and OoTP.
But this is also the man who thought, possibly without a doubt, that Sirius killed James and Lily. True, he was willing to question it once he saw Peter on the map, but it seems pretty clear to me that he was very certain that Sirius had. When Remus does find out it was Peter, he nearly kills him. Those are not gentle and kind actions, but rather, cold actions. Fanfiction often managed to overlook or excuse them, but JK Rowling evidently saw it differently.
What bothers me is that it still seems that something is missing. I think that being willing to abandon your wife and child during a very dangerous war is pretty darn low. And he actually attacks Harry. While Harry certainly had his wrongs in the argument, Harry was a seventeen year old boy; Remus was a thirty seven year old man. There was absolutely no reason for Remus to do that. When we see them again, Remus acts like it's back to old times. I just got the sense that we weren't seeing everything.
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Post by dancingpony on Jun 14, 2009 14:42:02 GMT -5
Since the books (except for a few small sections) are written entirely from Harry's point of view, there are a lot of things we don't see/know about. As readers, we have to assume that Remus did something during the years between the end of POA and his appearances in HBP and DH . . . but a lot is left to our imaginations, with only a few minor (and often inconsistent) clues.
A lot of our view of Remus is also colored by Harry's only "close up and personal" experiences with him -- which are in a student/professor relationship. Even years after Remus left his brief post at Hogwarts, Harry still thought of him as "Professor Lupin" first and as a close friend of his dad second. I don't think Harry ever saw him in a psuedo parent role. In fact, it's entirely possible (although perhaps not likely) that Harry did have periodic contacts with him during the GOF and OOP years, but those contacts aren't discussed in the books because of the way Harry viewed Lupin (ie, as a professor, not someone he would necessarily turn to when in need of a psuedo parent --- and also as someone with his own problems to deal with.)
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Post by dancingpony on Jun 14, 2009 16:29:17 GMT -5
While I'm thinking about Remus Lupin, here's a question I have puzzled over for years.
A reasonably skilled witch or wizard can transform a person into an animal (witness Draco the bouncing ferret) or even an inanimate object.
We know, from canon, that only humans can be infected with the "virus" that causes them to transform into werewolves. Animals are immune -- which is why James ane Sirius were able to transform themselves into large animals and control Remus during his transformations.
So, since animals (other than humans) can't become werewolves . . . what would happen if a reasonably skilled witch or wizard transformed Remus into, say, a housecat or an owl or a teapot just before the full moon? Would he transform into a werewolf when the moon rose, or would he stay that other animal or object until he was transformed back to human?
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Post by vegablack on Jun 14, 2009 23:54:16 GMT -5
As far as I remember it isn't that an animal can't catch the "virus" it is that the werewolf has no interest in biting or savaging the animal. They are only a danger to humans. So I don't think being an animal has anything to do with not transforming. So maybe Remus would still transform if he was in animal form.
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