Climate Change in Fans

[magikcat]

This isn't deep or anything -- just a thought a occured to me recently.

I recently stumbled upon this interesting biography here: www.journalfen.net/users/charlottelenno/784.html. It took me most of the night to read, but basically it told the story of a ardent H/Hr fan named Ms.Scribe the early days of Harry Potter fandom (2003-2004) who is accused (through the use of some very convincing evidence), that she set up multiple livejournal personalities ("sock puppets" is the word they use) to pimp up her stories and trash site reputations (one sock puppet she apparently posed as was a die-hard member of the late Harry/Ginny site, Gyffindor Tower, and trolled many of the H/Hr fans journals). She was extremely popular for almost a year before she was caught and disappeared in 2006. (I'm curious as to whether any of our older members -- every respect intended -- remember this going on?)

I realize that is not an "official" biography, so the author could very well be lying, but still interesting. The thought that anyone could do this is absolutely appalling. I discovered the fandom world in the spring of 2004, and even then I just read the fanfiction. I remembered hearing about the "shipping/theory" wars that went on, but once I started visiting the discussions, it seemed to have cooled down.

Anyway, this got me to thinking.

1) Have the "wars" between Harry Potter fans gone virtually extinct, or have you witnessed "battles" going on recently?

2) What do you think compels/compelled "fans" to act this way?

3) Some have called the 2001-2005 years "The Golden Age of Fanfiction" and "The War of the Ships." Do you agree? Why or why not?

You don't have to answer all of them, and I'm not posting this because she was an H/Hr shipper, but I'm curious as to your answers. The article is also a very interesting read if you have time to read.

[birdg]

I've definitely noticed this. I'm new to the HP fandom (didn't read the books till September 2007!) but I knew of the fandom and all its craziness thanks to Fandom_Wank. So I was thereon the sidelines when the Ms. Scribe bomb dropped and even before with all the in-fighting between the H/Hr and R/Hr people. It was insane and that's why even though the books interested me (I was so spoiled for them thanks to being on FW) I wouldn't go near them because I knew once I did, I'd get into fandom and once I did that I'd be one of the crazy people fighting too.

(For those wondering, I'd have been on the OBHWF and Snape is good sides. Yes, even before I really read the books.)

1) They're mostly dead. There are still some entrenched camps (Fiction Alley has sadly descended into a "Lord of Flies" like zone) but for the most part, people have relaxed. Something you see now on Livejournal that you wouldn't have see before DH is people friending those with different shipping opinions. Before you'd see entire flists where people had similar shipping preferences (like all R/Hr people) but now, I see R/Hr people who have H/Hr people on their flists and the like.

Also, people seem to be branching out of their established pairings. Being a fan of Rose/Scorpius, I have a lot of R/Hr people on my flist but I also have quite a few D/Hr people as well. (They're very cool D/Hr people, they don't hate Ron. Weasley hating is the one fannish thing I won't put up with in a fannish friend.)

2.) They're invested in their pairings just like we are. I mean, Ms Scribe is just nuts so I can't even explain what was going on there but to her friends she was this witty, wonderful person who was unfairly maligned by those awful people whom her H/Hr friends were already disinclined to like after their own run-ins with H/G and R/Hr people.

This doesn't excuse what they did but I can see how people get swept up into that. Especially when it's your friends and your fannish identity that's tied up in it.

3.) I don't think it was really the Golden Age, unless you're talking about sheer quantity. A lot of my favorite fanfics came out in the year immediately following the release of DH. Really, just some of the best writing I've ever seen.

And "War of the Ships"? It was more a Hobbesian "War of all against all". *shudders* The H/Hr vs. R/Hr and H/G is just one tiny part of the tale.

[Author By Night]

This topic inspired its own board, hence moving the topic twice. Though I normally wouldn't advocate talking about specific fans... however, in this case, Ms Scribe is "out", so I'm giving it the okay.

I had more to add, but it's a busy morning - I've been trying to type a response for about two hours. So I'll add my thoughts later. But I wanted to say something before anyone wondered why this was moved!

[mo]

I'm not at all surprised to hear that there were some vicious sockpuppets out there in the Shipping Wars heyday. I used to write for craft magazines about Scrapbooking, of all things, and related message boards were full of bickering fights and sycophantic sockpuppets and drive-by anon nastiness. I figure if people can get that psychotic about patterned paper and Photoshop brushes, then fictional romances is a gimme.

For the most part, the shipping wars seem to have died down, at least from some of the 'ships. Harry/Hermione seems to be pretty subdued at this point. Oddly enough, the Harry/Draco and Hermione/Draco people still seem like they can't let go. Perhaps this is because they were really denied more than just their 'ship, but also a redemption arc for Draco. For years it seems fandom wrestled with EVIL! Draco or ABUSED! Draco or DOUBLE AGENT! Draco...and, in the end, he turns out to be a spoiled brat who was snobby, bigoted, and self-serving, but not an evil mastermind on his own. A bit boring compared to the Draco-centric theories that floated around out there, but quite realistic, as he was probably quite representational of the bulk of the individuals who participated in the real-world equivalents of the Death Eaters. I daresay most Nazi officers and Jim Crow racists were not Goebbles-level evil, but just self-entitled people who willfully lacked human compassion when having it would make their own lives less comfortable. And, so go the Malfoys.

I'm not sure when the Golden Age of fanfic was/will be. I didn't start reading myself until after DH. As I have worked my way through old stories, I see the biggest spike post-HBP and another smaller spike after OoTP and DH. I think HBP brought the "how will Ron and Hermione get together" storyline to a fevered pitch, and, from my limited readings in other ships, also introduced the "Ron becomes EVIL!" storylines to the fray, because now all of the non-R/Hr ships felt the need to include "Why Ron and Hermione aren't together" in the story. Interestingly enough, from what I've seen, Draco/Hermione seems to feel the need to paint Ron as an idiot who doesn't appreciate Hermione and who possibly also abuses her, and Harry/Hermione seems to feel the need to make Ron into a cheating ho. It belies a strange sort of anger at R/Hr, because one would think that pre-DH it would be easy enough to kill Ron off and just have the story be "a bereaved Hermione finds love again." But, for these folks, death is too good for Ron. They needed to assassinate his character.

Wither the other ships now? Well, obviously they aren't battling it out with the same fervor, as JKR herself has spoken on the matter. But, there are still odd pockets out there. They seem to hang out amongst their own at this point. Post-DH RPGs seem to be full of Alterna-shippers who are determined to play out ways for Hermione to date basically anyone but Ron, and, while the main H/Hr archive I know of seems to have gone dark, there are still some very active D/H and Hr/D groups.

Like BirdG, I enjoy me some Rose/Scorpius, (I blame QueenB23's awesome "Now or Never" for that) and that is where I've found some of the persistent D/Hr out there. Several times I'll be moving along through a R/S story and all of a sudden Rose has to go home for hols and OHNOES! Her Daddy is abusive! Thank goodness for Scorpius and his hot and sensitive single dad! And then, I see my own brain because my eyes have rolled back so hard.


(Edited because of my naughty language and an auto-edit that made a sentence make no sense!)

[birdg]

Like BirdG, I enjoy me some Rose/Scorpius, (I blame QueenB23's awesome "Now or Never" for that) and that is where I've found some of the persistent D/Hr out there. Several times I'll be moving along through a R/S story and all of a sudden Rose has to go home for hols and OHNOES! Her Daddy is abusive! Thank goodness for Scorpius and his hot and sensitive single dad! And then, I see my own brain because my eyes have rolled back so hard.

Oh, honey, no! You must stay away from the crazy fic. (Unless you like reading it for the lolz. Which I sometimes do because some of that stuff is just funny in its stupidity.) But really, if you ever need a list of good Rose/Scorpius just PM me. Or check out the stuff from the last Rose/Scorpius fest on LJ. No Ron-bashing there, thank God!

Alterna-shippers who are determined to play out ways for Hermione to date basically anyone but Ron, and, while the main H/Hr archive I know of seems to have gone dark, there are still some very active D/H and Hr/D groups.

Both those ships are very, very active on LJ. I think Harry/Draco is the biggest Harry Potter ship on LJ hands-down, it has tons of comms and fests devoted to it. And I say good for them. Make fic, not wank!

I've noticed quite a few Harry/Hermione people who ship Harry/Hermione/Ron or Harry/Ron and Harry/Hermione after DH. It's an interesting development.

[Author By Night]

Both those ships are very, very active on LJ. I think Harry/Draco is the biggest Harry Potter ship on LJ hands-down, it has tons of comms and fests devoted to it. And I say good for them. Make fic, not wank!

Me too. Hey, if you wish a ship had happened, by all means write it.

My issue is just when JK Rowling is attacked because that ship didn't happen. She is not obligated to cater to anyone.

I think that there is something about shipping that sets people off, non-canon shippers and canon shippers alike. I'm not sure what it is, but it's annoying. I actually remember some Ron/Hermione shippers being quite nasty, and I never understood that. Obviously we were right, but why be mean to people over shipping?

[mo]

Oh, honey, no! You must stay away from the crazy fic. (Unless you like reading it for the lolz. Which I sometimes do because some of that stuff is just funny in its stupidity.) But really, if you ever need a list of good Rose/Scorpius just PM me. Or check out the stuff from the last Rose/Scorpius fest on LJ. No Ron-bashing there, thank God!

LOL...I didn't know it was a crazy until it was too late! I was just following links to recced stories on the LJ "Don't Get Too Friendly" comm and had a shocker of a time!

It wasn't the first time, either. I was so not a part of the fandom boom that I'm a bit of a naif, I'm afraid. Like I said, while I was an avid reader of the books right from the start, I didn't read ANYTHING online until post-DH. I was actually surprised that H/Hr even existed, because I was in such isolation that I thought if R/Hr was obvious to me from Book 1, that everyone must think it was a foregone conclusion! You can imagine my shock at some of the stuff I found when I did get online....whole communities devoted to Draco/Blaise/Hermione? REALLY?

That said, I have been open to some AU ship fics, and some can be entertaining, although for me the characters need to be just "tweaked" and not completely changed. Since R/Hr was on my mind from the time they met on the train (it just seemed like the standard sparring RomCom "meet" to me and I never thought it would go any other way. Ron's character development seems pretty much standard het boyness to me, so I can't get in to Harry/Ron, and TrioLove requires a total blind eye to Ron's posessive nature.) I really haven't found myself buying them paired up otherwise...but Harry's general bafflement about human relationships in general makes him a little more pliable for alternative ship stories. There are some light, humorous Draco/Harry fics that have entertained me immensely, despite the fact that it is such a departure from Canon.

[vegablack]

I was so not a part of the fandom boom that I'm a bit of a naif, I'm afraid. Like I said, while I was an avid reader of the books right from the start, I didn't read ANYTHING online until post-DH. I was actually surprised that H/Hr even existed, because I was in such isolation that I thought if R/Hr was obvious to me from Book 1, that everyone must think it was a foregone conclusion! You can imagine my shock at some of the stuff I found when I did get online....whole communities devoted to Draco/Blaise/Hermione? REALLY?

... Since R/Hr was on my mind from the time they met on the train (it just seemed like the standard sparring RomCom "meet" to me and I never thought it would go any other way.

This is me word for word except I only thought of Ron and Hermione during the "Are you a witch or not " momment and it did seem to me to be a classic romantic comedy set up.

I was so naive that I started an NC-17 fic involving a couple that I found so unlikely that I assumed the rating was for adult themes dealing with violence, grief and other mature topics. I was so wrong. It took me forever to figure out what a slash meant.

I find the intensity of emotion on the internet a little startling. I am a keen arguer but I don't normally go personal as quickly as people do here. I still find it amazing. It reminds me of the statement about arguments in academia being so nasty because the stakes are so low. How low could the stakes be in a discussion about HP characters on the internet?

[MWPP]

OT - - Um....

Since this thread has settled into a topic finally, the previous "moved to" posts should be updated. I was beginning to think it was some practical joke that it didn't open to the correct place with the first click - I'd actually decided that if the third click didn't get me there I would go back to the forums page and give up on being the butt of the joke/wasting time.

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[Author By Night]

Feb 20, 2009 22:33:11 GMT -5 MWPP said:

OT - - Um....

Since this thread has settled into a topic finally, the previous "moved to" posts should be updated. I was beginning to think it was some practical joke that it didn't open to the correct place with the first click - I'd actually decided that if the third click didn't get me there I would go back to the forums page and give up on being the butt of the joke/wasting time.

.
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Oh dear, no, just a forum glitch.

Just for the record, we'll never make you guys the butts of any jokes. Promise!

[vegablack]

I am a keen arguer but I don't normally go personal as quickly as people do here. I still find it amazing.

I hope everyone knows that by "here" I mean on the internet not on this site.

On this site everyone has been very sane and calm and lovely to deal with.

I have to learn to read what I write before I post it.

(Smileys I either love them or hate them.)

[pigwithhair]

Yeah, the fandom has calmed down, and no, I don't think it was the Golden Age when so many people were going nuts and flaming each other left and right. The Golden Age, imo, was between HBP and DH when it was just fun. Everyone was just anticipating the book and worrying too much about what was coming up in the final installment to do much ship wars.

I'm a canon ship girl ONLY, myself. If you've read my fics you know I'm a R/Hr fan. I've red some good Teddy/Victoire as well. While I was glad Harry turned out happy with Ginny, I don't read H/G fic. It squicks me out, I just can't read Harry in intimate situations. But I'm glad he's happy.

[Alexis]

This "Golden Age" is all relative. What any particular fan thinks of as the best time in fandom has a lot to do with when they were most invested in it--which makes perfect sense!

So when people reminisce about the Three Year Summer, I don't think they're yearning for the ugly H/Hr v R/Hr ship wars. (Cause let's face it, though there are plenty of other potential ships, at that time, those were the two at the center of everything.) They're thinking about all the fun times they had theorizing with other fans, reading and writing fan fiction, and anticipating the next book.

Later on, a lot of these same people were still in fandom, but it wasn't as fresh and new for HBP or DH as it had been back then. Undoubtedly some fandom friends had moved on, pet theories had been debunked, etc. Sure, fandom was still fun, but remember how great it used to be?

But for others who became heavily involved in fandom later, those late times were awesome! Who needs nostalgia for fandom years gone by when there's so many great things going on now?

As with many things, it's all a matter of perspective.

[doriscrockford]

I had never really heard of fanfiction before I stumbled on to the Yahoogroup for After the End in late 2001/early 2002 (can't remember when it was exactly). I was so uneducated about the whole thing I didn't even have a screenname yet. From there I found the Sugarquill, which was primarily my HP visiting spot, with occasional visits to Gryffindor Tower. So I was around, and even active in a mostly lurker kind of way through the major battle era, but it wasn't until about a year ago that I read about the shipper wars and how nasty they got. (From the msscribe entry that started this thread, no less.)

I can't really explain how it is possible that I missed all of it, other than to say it must be due to the class of Zsenya, Arabella, Moey, etc. who while having gently but effectively-worded warnings and rules posted on SQ, were always funny and never vicious in their dealings with the "delusional" (to quote the infamous LeakyMug JKR interview).

I think the climate has changed a lot since OotP was published. That book seemed to dampen enthusiasm for awhile and since DH was published there has obviously been less traffic due to theories no longer being a main talking point.

That said, I am happy this board is here because I really enjoyed reading the always thoughtful and frequently hilarious posts on SQ, and since my first foray into the wider world of messageboards back in 2001/2, I now know how rare that kind of a community is. I'm very glad to see some familiar names here.

[Chocolatepot]

I think HBP brought the "how will Ron and Hermione get together" storyline to a fevered pitch, and, from my limited readings in other ships, also introduced the "Ron becomes EVIL!" storylines to the fray,

Mmm, I actually think the Evil!Ron fics were more popular around GoF. Fics where Ron became a Death Eater were strangely prevalent.

Interestingly enough, from what I've seen, Draco/Hermione seems to feel the need to paint Ron as an idiot who doesn't appreciate Hermione and who possibly also abuses her

Snape/Hermione and Lucius/Hermione also do this - their views of Snape, Draco, and Lucius in these fics seem to rest on how well-educated and -bred they are, and so Ron has to have terrible manners and no appreciation for Hermione beyond the fact that she helps him with homework.

one would think that pre-DH it would be easy enough to kill Ron off and just have the story be "a bereaved Hermione finds love again." But, for these folks, death is too good for Ron. They needed to assassinate his character.

I think it's because everyone knew it was going to be R/Hr. Even people who said it wasn't. Hermione liked Ron - it would ruin it if they left it there because then she'd still love him even though he was dead. They had to make her not like him anymore.

1) Have the "wars" between Harry Potter fans gone virtually extinct, or have you witnessed "battles" going on recently?

Yeah, they're done. Everyone who liked the books has pretty much settled down into well-earned (what?) complacency, and everyone who disliked certain parts has entrenched themselves in their own communities, like Snapedom or HP_Essays. (What?) I think that if the people who were essentially happy decided they wanted to start it up again, they could, but they won't.

2) What do you think compels/compelled "fans" to act this way?

I'm definitely one of the battling fans, so in my experience - because one side will say something that sounds reasonable to them but offends the other side. If that's what you mean. Like defending Petunia's abusive and neglectful behavior, or saying that Lily was a gold-digger and a bad friend to Snape.

3) Some have called the 2001-2005 years "The Golden Age of Fanfiction" and "The War of the Ships." Do you agree? Why or why not?

Definitely was the golden age of fic, mainly because there were so many more possibilities open. 2005 was when HBP was published, right? By that point, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen in the last book in terms of how Voldemort would be defeated, character development, &c. and so I don't think people wanted to bother writing big plotty fics about it. Plus the factionalization had solidified and people were just writing for their niches.

[Ilene Bones]

I read the whole saga of Ms.Scribe a while ago (well, ok, I did skip over some parts) and while it surprised me a little that people would go so far, I wouldn't say it shocked me. I wasn't that involved in HP fandom then, so I didn't actually witness it. But I have seen other Net communities evolve (or devolve) into wars between posters and factions that overshadowed the actual topic the community was supposed to be based on. Flaming, stalking, sockpuppets, hacking, all that. A broken marriage or two. Yeah, people can get quite insane online.

1) Have the "wars" between Harry Potter fans gone virtually extinct, or have you witnessed "battles" going on recently?

I'd say the full-scale wars are extinct but there are petty battles going on in individual forums. Seems there's more of bitter disappointed people just b---ching about their displeasure, and often that kind of discussion turns into a contest to see who can be the most negative.


2) What do you think compels/compelled "fans" to act this way?
Like I said before, this really isn't limited to the HP fandom, or media-based fandom (books, TV shows, movies, etc). Go over to some sports forums and while there aren't shipping wars there are vocal fans of one team or another, or one player or another, and there are some scary, scary battles over "Why Player X should/shouldn't be traded", "Why Player Y is the worst you-know-what to play the position or isn't", "Why Player Z's fans are all silly girls or aren't". I don't hang out in celebrity forums but since I know people in RL who still debate whether Jen or Angie is better for Brad Pitt to be with, I'm sure there are online fights about that as well. Don't even get me started about political forums. I think it's the nature of the medium, unfortunately. The anonymous nature of it brings out a lot of the worst of human nature, somewhat like road rage, I think. When you're rushing to work you can lose sight of the fact that there are flesh-and-blood people sitting in the car that just cut you off on the freeway, and likewise, some people forget there is a fellow human being behind the computer screen typing the words that they find so outrageous.

3) Some have called the 2001-2005 years "The Golden Age of Fanfiction" and "The War of the Ships." Do you agree? Why or why not? Well, I think the amount of fanfiction produced at the time was certainly the most substantial. I think the Three Year Summer between GoF and OotP was really great for the fandom because at that point, the series had gotten complex enough for a lot of older (or, to be PC, more mature) readers to discover HP, read the books, and realize this wasn't just a kiddie trend. Not to mention that there wasn't much shipping fodder until GoF. There was a lot of canon to serve as a jumping-off point, but there was still much to be determined and more room for the imagination to soar. I wasn't heavily involved in shipping wars so I can't really comment on that aspect. I always thought R/H and H/G would happen but I wasn't that emotionally invested in the outcome. I didn't think H/H would happen but I didn't consider the idea sacrilege or anything like that. My main reasons for becoming an HP fan had little to do with shipping, and I don't think Rowling is a great romance writer -- not a hack, but not great either. (But perhaps this is because I am also an Austenite and I don't think anyone tops her. )

[Rugi]

Feb 19, 2009 20:55:40 GMT -5 magikcat said:

Tlehis isn't deep or anything -- just a thought a occured to me recently.

I recently stumbled upon this interesting biography here: www.journalfen.net/users/charlottelenno/784.html. It took me most of the night to read, but basically it told the story of a ardent H/Hr fan named Ms.Scribe the early days of Harry Potter fandom (2003-2004) ... She was extremely popular for almost a year before she was caught and disappeared in 2006. (I'm curious as to whether any of our older members -- every respect intended -- remember this going on?)

It's interesting that you bring this up. I was around since almost the beginning (I began dabbling by reading stuff, ironically enough, at Gryffindor Tower in 2001, though I ended up spending most of my time at SQ). I remember the GT blow-up (which resulted in a lot of shipping related schadenfreude). I ended up reading about Msscribe after everything had gone down and was quite amazed by what I had missed by avoiding the LiveJournals and sticking around mostly at SQ. At the time, it was certainly shattering to a lot of people involved - though now I think it's all a bit weird to think about - that something like fanfiction would inspire so much real-world stress and odd behavior...

(3) Some have called the 2001-2005 years "The Golden Age of Fanfiction" and "The War of the Ships." Do you agree? Why or why not?

I think the people who see it as a "Golden Age" see it that way because it was a Golden Age for them. I have to admit that my interest in HP fanfiction almost completely dried up after tOotP was published - it was as if the "real thing" made the fanfiction stuff unnecessary to me. Even now, I only really read stuff written by a friend (or I go back to see the old stuff I liked). The three-year-summer was definitely a time when everyone had an unbridled opportunity to remake HP as they wanted without having any pesky canon updates to narrow the field of what wasn't AU.

As for the shipping wars, I never was hugely active (I avoided the places where the big fights evidently went on) but I did post a bit on the R/Hr vs. H/Hr debate thread on fictionalley, which ended up feeling like a pointless exercise that I couldn't drag myself away from. The debate threads kind of did show the issue - each side would post a lot with both groups unable to really make any headway because no one was willing to give ground or even really understand the other POV. And I was definitely guilty as I was sure that it was R/Hr since like POA (I think).