Occlumency and Legilimency

[birdg]

I've been thinking a lot about these two magical skills as I'm working on fics that feature a skilled Occlumens in a relationship with someone who is on their way to becoming a skilled Legilimens. (Wacky hijinx may ensue.) And I have a lot of questions.

- We're told being an Occlumens allows someone to resist Veritaserum, likely because this skill gives them greater control over their thoughts and emotions. Would they also be able to resist a love potion? Or the Imperius curse?

- It's both implied in the books and in JKR's statements about Draco that Occlumency is easier to grasp if you're able to block out emotions - particularly things like compassion. Would life events like falling in love or having kids make someone more susceptible to Legilimency?

- Would a Legilimens be able to detect when someone is under the Imperius Curse?

- Would certain jobs require a basic degree of competency at Occulmency and/or Legilimency? I could see the Aurors maybe requiring the former and at least encouraging the latter. Perhaps other jobs like Obliviators and even Healers (who apparently occasionally work on Muggles and may have to Obliviate them if necessary) would also be expected to know Legililmency, the former more so.

Thoughts?

[vegablack]

In my universe Legilimency was Alice Longbottom's specialty as an Auror. All aurors have some skill in the field but she spent an extra year working on it and the work related to that skill was hers. She worked on spying and interogation more than arrest for instance.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about Legilimency and these are my thoughts. It and Occlumency take physical, mental and magical effort and thus are subject to exhaustion. There are degrees of skill and sheer magical power involved as well.

She will often use trickery to fool a subject into letting down their guard. Since Occlumency takes conscious effort a subject can be tricked and distracted into not applying it through misdirection and deceit. A subject could employ it but less effectively than another person applies Legilimency.

I believe a person well trained in Occlumency as a necessary skill would consciously keep their emotions under control enough to allow themselves to do their work. The way a doctor or nurse isn't hampered by compassion when giving care even care that causes pain. A medical person or police officer have to use their compassion strategically. A cop can't let pity lure him into letting a felon go, but he still needs to treat a felon with compassion. A nurse with young children might have a difficult time with child suffering but she might still work in child oncology.

I can't believe that Harry wouldn't have been hampered as an Auror if he never learned Occlumency. He must pray he is never approached by a trained legilimens dark wizard.

I believe that being an Occlumens would protect you to some extent from love potions, contact with Velas and the Imperius curse, but there is no fool proof defence any where. Someone will figure out how to over come another person if they are intersted. Look at Moody.

As to being able to tell if someone was Impiriused. I can't believe such a thing wouldn't be apparent in the mind, but we are told that it was a useful defense and was used falsely. Its implied it is difficult. Perhaps for political reasons some people were protected from being approached by Legilimens.

I imgine reporters would love to be Legilimens though Perhpas that would be illegal. I imagine politician would want to be good occlumens.

In my world Alice had to got through psychological and ethical testing before she could be trained as a Ministry apporved legilimens. (Though it is obvious that some are trained secretly without this.) She was registered the way a Animagus is. She also needs something like a court order to be allowed to use it against someoine during interogation or stake out (this is easy to get is assumed on assignment) unless she uses it to preserve safety of herself or others. The point being she doesn't use it casually. She applies the same rules to her work for the Order and needs formal agreement with Dumbledore to interrogate or use Legilimency on someone, unless life or limb is an issue.

She feels guilt after Lily's death that she didn't apply it to the Marauders.

She doesn't use it casually against her friends or Frank. Legiimens who use their craft on their friends don't have them for long she says. She would apply the same attitude to Frank and would see using it on him without his permission akin to beating him up. This is all my universe.

[queenie]

In my universe, all Obliviators are expected to be capable (if not skilled) Leglimens and Occlumens. If nothing else, they should be able to tell if a Muggle is hiding anything from them, and then coax it from them. Furthermore, they must be able to have a certain amount of disconnect from the Muggles they work with, who might be frightened, suspicious, or distressed (especially as the war continues). To me the skills seem to go hand in hand. Also, Obliviators should have enough control over themselves and their memories to produce corporeal Patronuses.

[birdg]

She will often use trickery to fool a subject into letting down their guard. Since Occlumency takes conscious effort a subject can be tricked and distracted into not applying it through misdirection and deceit. A subject could employ it but less effectively than another person applies Legilimency.

That makes sense. I doubt most Occlumens are on guard 24/7. I think the few known ones like Snape and Draco give fans a false impression. Certain Death Eaters like those two were probably watching every step because if they slipped up, they might die. I imagine it would be tiring to constantly Occlude your mind but maybe they get used to it after a while.

So for those who aren't watching every step, having them talk to a sweet-faced female Auror is probably a good way to get information.

I believe a person well trained in Occlumency as a necessary skill would consciously keep their emotions under control enough to allow themselves to do their work.

I could see that. It reminds me of the tv show "Scrubs" when Turk was talking about operating on people, he has to stop seeing them as people with families and instead as parts that need to be fixed.

I can't believe that Harry wouldn't have been hampered as an Auror if he never learned Occlumency. He must pray he is never approached by a trained legilimens dark wizard.

Agreed. Hopefully, he picked up some skills along the way.

I can't believe such a thing wouldn't be apparent in the mind, but we are told that it was a useful defense and was used falsely. Its implied it is difficult.

I think it also depends on how well the Imperius curse was cast. Apparently Draco must be very good at it if no one noticed Rosemerta and Barty Crouch Jr. probably was as well if Moody couldn't fight it off. On the other hand, the person who put Stan Shunpike under Imperius didn't do a very good job if it was obvious to Harry.

In my world Alice had to got through psychological and ethical testing before she could be trained as a Ministry apporved legilimens.

Sounds about right. I think like Animagi, the Ministry might want to keep tabs on who is a Legilimens and who isn't.

In my universe, all Obliviators are expected to be capable (if not skilled) Leglimens and Occlumens. If nothing else, they should be able to tell if a Muggle is hiding anything from them, and then coax it from them

Same with mine. Also, I think some form of Legilimency might be necessary for memory charms when you think about it.

[vegablack]

I made Alice sound very upright. It's true Legilimency is very rude in normal life -- worse than reading someones mail or snooping in their email account. Some people are nervous around known Legilimens for that reason.

She did use legilimency in a social context without permision against one person -- her mother-in-law. She felt the woman was so difficult it was justified.

[dancingpony]

It and Occlumency take physical, mental and magical effort and thus are subject to exhaustion. There are degrees of skill and sheer magical power involved as well.

I agree with this. It would be very difficult for even the most skilled Occlumens to keep up the effort 24/7 without becoming totally exhausted and, therefore, more vulnerable to having one's true thoughts and feelings slip out.
I'd guess that one of the reasons an Occlumens can resist the effects of vertiaserum is that he/she would know -- or at least guess, from the situation -- that it was being used, which would put him/her on alert, focused on using Occlumency.
Perhaps a love potion would be more effective than veritaserum against an Occlumens, first because love potions are almost always slipped to the "victim" secretly (ie, without putting the victim on alert) and second because a love potion is inherently different from a truth serum. A truth serum doesn't change what a person thinks or feels, it merely lowers a person's resistance toward sharing those thoughts and feelings with others. The stronger the reisistance (and an Occlumens would strongly resist), the less effective the truth serum. A love potion doesn't effect "resistance," though -- it actually confuses the underlying thoughts and feelings. The Occlumens might have his/her thoughts and feelings confused by a love potion but continue to resist sharing them.

I can't believe that Harry wouldn't have been hampered as an Auror if he never learned Occlumency. He must pray he is never approached by a trained legilimens dark wizard.

I don't think Harry's failure to learn Occlumency has a teenager indicates he could never learn it later, in Auror training. Remember that one of the reasons he didn't learn it was that he was conflicted: there was part of him that wanted to l

[vegablack]

I think had Harry had to learn Occlumency to be an Auror. I was really arguing against those who took JKR's reports to mean he didn't.

I think you have interesting points about the differences between a love potion and verasaterum. The second reveals while the first actively manipulates. A person might be more suseptable because of their own personality makeup even if they were a good occlumens.

[birdg]

Another question: Would Legilimency help treat people like the Longbottoms? Would it help with discerning whether their memories had been affected, figuring out exactly what is going on inside their head and possibly treating them by bringing certain memories to the forefront while suppressing others?

It would be risky, for sure, and controversial given that you're rummaging around in someone's mind and rearranging things. It would take a lot of skill and someone with a strong knowledge of psychology and Legilimency.

I'm not sure if it would work but I think there's potential.

[starsea]

An interesting proposition but you'd probably have one hell of a time putting it into action. Apart from the difficulty of working on an insane mind, we don't know how Alice or Frank would react to the feeling of someone else inside their heads. It might really upset them. And sorting through an insane mind would bring its own stress and even pain for a Legilimens.

[queenie]

Oct 3, 2009 9:38:08 GMT -5 starsea said:

And sorting through an insane mind would bring its own stress and even pain for a Legilimens.

I establish that in my fic. Sorting through an insane or otherwise damaged mind takes a great amount of time, care, and skill, so as not to exhaust the Obliviator who's working on them, because the work of a careless Obliviator could do more harm than good.

[birdg]

I establish that in my fic. Sorting through an insane or otherwise damaged mind takes a great amount of time, care, and skill, so as not to exhaust the Obliviator who's working on them, because the work of a careless Obliviator could do more harm than good.

That sounds interesting! Would you mind linking that fic, I'd like to read it. (You can send it to me in a PM if you don't want to post it in the thread.)

[vegablack]

I have Alice and Frank examined by several Legilimens after there attack. An Auror Legilimens examined them to get some of the information that was used to capture and convict their assailants. A medical Legilimens was used to diagnose their disability. Since I view them as more brain-damaged than strictly insane, I don't use obliviation to cure them.

Legilimency would be very useful in caring for them, since their ability to communicate appears to be compromised. Legilimency has limitations. It appears in the books to take the form of images and remembered scenes rather than thoughts speaking in the head. Probably the Legilimens can feel emotions as well, which would aid in interpreting truth versus lying and the degree that a person's memories are trustworthy.

Legilimency appears to be an art form or craft more than a cut and dried science.

I bet the memories don't appear like those in a Pensieve. Just as our memories from childhood are misinformed by our own naivete, ignorance and fears, the Legilimens probably sees memories confused by the feelings and assumptions of the mind he is examining. A Pensieve has the view of an impartial observer.

I bet all the methods of gaining insights into thoughts, the Pensieve, veraestrum, Legilimency, all have strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation.