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Post by birdg on Mar 12, 2009 15:26:30 GMT -5
I don't know, I could see Snape choosing his cunning as his most defining trait. He rarely had a chance to be outwardly brave, rather surviving by manipulating those around him and general spycraft. It's very Slytherin to me.
And for Dumbledore's remark, I always took it as a sign Dumbledore had his own issues to work out. Hmm, a young man who is interested in Dark wizards, ambitious, wants to rule the Muggles (for their own good of course), generally good at keeping secrets and grows up to be quite "Machiavellian".
That sounds like Slytherin material to me! Now, clearly Dumbledore went to Gryffindor because he valued their traits more (it's your choices blah blah blah) but I'm sure Dumbledore wondered if he hadn't been mis-sorted and continued to project his Gryffindor-Slytherin issues on others for the rest of his life.
(You would never know I like Dumbledore from the way I talk about him sometimes.)
Which again, speaks to how messed-up this sorting business is. If you're a well-rounded human being, you'll probably fit into several houses making all this nonsense about being "mis-sorted" just that.
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 12, 2009 15:39:15 GMT -5
It come down to semantics. I would say Dumbledore had been the cunning and manipulative one. Snape pretended to work for Voldemort, exposing himself to Voldemort repeatedly while all the while working to protect Harry from Voldemort. That's bravery to me.
Dumbledore was the one moving people around like chess pieces. He's a fascinating character, but I agree that Dumbledore had Slytherin traits as well.
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 14, 2009 9:46:48 GMT -5
Sorry to double post: I was going to post after BirdG's latest in the Contradictions thread, but it seemed more of a "House system" post.
While it's interesting to wonder if any Slytherins returned during the battle, and the book certainly left me with the impression that not many Slytherins - if any, aside from Sluggy - went back, but if none did, what would that mean for the future of Slytherin House?
I want to say that probably none did since the book left me thinking that, but it doesn't seem too probable. I mean if none did wouldn't Slytherin House have to start from scratch completely the following year? If you ran out when the school needed you most, would you really be welcomed back? I can't see that happening. Well, I guess the first years were already instructed to leave, so they may come back, but that wouldn't be true for the upper years.
Given that issue, I have to think that a few went back.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 15, 2009 1:09:16 GMT -5
No underage student was supposed to defend the school at all. That is why Harry felt free to insist that Ginny stay where it was safe. Colin Creavey snuck back in against McGonagall's orders. Other students may have done so as well but it was not what anyone wanted to have happen.
So all the Slytherins from fifth year and younger would have been expected to evacuate with the other students from other houses.
The students over seventeen would include all the seventh years and part of the sixth years. Those students were offered the opportunity to fight but were not required or expected to. Ernie asks "And what if we want to stay and fight?" There was a smattering of applause. Then McGonagall answers that "if you are of age you may stay."
At no point is it expected that the overage stay. Indeed we are told "a number of Ravenclaws" and "even more Hufflepuffs" stayed behind during the evacuation. This implies that some evacuated. If over age students from houses other than Slytherin evacuated then Slytherin students can't be blamed for evacuating.
The bigger question would be behavior in the course of the year under the Carrows. Students were punished for not torturing, so a student who tortured or acted for the Carrows could claim they did so under duress and as many undoubtedly were in that position, deciding who was guilty and who was innocent would be difficult.
I think for the long term peace of the society Slytherin as a house would have to remain. (I also think the magic used to build Hogwarts probably requires it.)
Individual members of Slytherin may well be in jail after the war.
But a student who simply evacuated should not have been blamed. They just followed McGonagall's orders.
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Post by Mirabelle on Mar 15, 2009 10:13:28 GMT -5
While it's interesting to wonder if any Slytherins returned during the battle, and the book certainly left me with the impression that not many Slytherins - if any, aside from Sluggy - went back, but if none did, what would that mean for the future of Slytherin House? I want to say that probably none did since the book left me thinking that, but it doesn't seem too probable. I mean if none did wouldn't Slytherin House have to start from scratch completely the following year? If you ran out when the school needed you most, would you really be welcomed back? I can't see that happening. Well, I guess the first years were already instructed to leave, so they may come back, but that wouldn't be true for the upper years. Given that issue, I have to think that a few went back. Would the future of the house really be an issue on their minds in deciding whether to stay or leave? I'd be concerned about my personal safety and the safety of my friends or family and my own personal beliefs--those would be the factors that determined my course of behavior. The future of Slytherin House would be far down the list. As for what happened the year after, there will probably be students who do hold it against those who didn't stay and fight. There will still be divisions between the houses as there have been in the previous years.
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 15, 2009 10:31:14 GMT -5
The question was in reference to what would come after. I never mentioned it might be on anyone's mind that night.
Your other comment is what I was referring to: that there might be divisions made up by resentment among the older students.
VegaBlack: Good point; I'd forgotten that more than first years left, you're quite right. Do you think any Slytherin parents would keep there children away from Hogwarts the following year?
What would be the feelings of parents about sending their children to Hogwarts after all that? The Greengrass family comes to mind here. Daphne would have been among those who left, though Astoria would have a fifth year then. Would she have left because her sister left?
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Post by queenie on Jun 21, 2009 22:38:31 GMT -5
I kind of wonder if discrimination might work the opposite way after the war. Where, at the start, there was heavy discrimination against Muggle-borns and those who sympathized with them, after the war people who have Death Eaters in their families (a lot of Slytherins) or, as said before, the students who may have had to torture others in order to preserve themselves - or adult wizards in analogous situations - would have faced heavy discrimination by people who had been allied with Harry the whole time. Everyone would have a whole new reason to hate Slytherins and all those who associated with them.
Probably some parents held their children back from Hogwarts. You know what there probably was? An extra class of first-years, twelve-year-old Muggleborns who had been denied admittance to Hogwarts the year prior. Now the story of a kid like that would be interesting.
Maybe the students themselves would help with the repairs. Some classes here in the U.S. have the students plant little gardens for a project in Science or whatnot. Imagine the projects you could have when the school is your canvas!
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Post by vegablack on Jul 13, 2009 22:25:02 GMT -5
Which again, speaks to how messed-up this sorting business is. If you're a well-rounded human being, you'll probably fit into several houses making all this nonsense about being "mis-sorted" just that.
BirdG, I like the fact that well-rounded people would fit into almost any house, and that most people would have traits that could put them in another house. (Percy reading a book about Prefects that rule and his constant struggle with the way his family undermines the ambitions he has for himself is a perfect Slytherin, yet he like all Weasleys is in Gryffindor. Is that merely family tradition, or does he think Gryffindore will help him get ahead, or does it take courage to be the person he wants to be given his families values and reputation?)
People are complicated and we tend not to understand other people or ourselves. I like the idea of a magical object who can know us in a way that others who see the surface and we ourselves who feel conflicted can't.
The problem with the house system is that people believe it, students and readers. If it was viewed with more humor and as a school artifact everyone would be more healthy.
I think the Slytherin's would have a cloud over them after the war, but that the society would have wanted to cover over all breeches after the initial trials were over. I think someone would have evacuated and then later returned when slugwort brings the parenst back. Some students may have been forewarned to evacuate by parents.
queenie -- I love your idea about a year of twelve year old first years muggleborn students. Things would have been crazy for awhile. I also like your idea of the students working on fixing Hogwarts as part of their lessons.
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Post by birdg on Jul 17, 2009 16:16:34 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this and the main problem with Slytherin is that it sorts based on blood. It's the only house that does this and I think the value placed on this attribute - not the value on cunning or ambition - has done more to align the Slytherin house with Dark wizards than anything else.
Which makes me wonder why no one has ever attempted to change the hat.
It's not like the hat was handed down on high - it was made by wizards, it can be altered by wizards. There's no real reason not to other than tradition. And I don't think tradition should be worth more than people or instilling the right values.
Assuming, of course, that they do value people over tradition.
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Post by vegablack on Jul 17, 2009 18:18:57 GMT -5
I wonder if in the past people had just accepted that purebloods would want to be a people apart and that other than a few families with special traditions they would want to keep to themselves in a house made for them. How else would they marry each other if they didn't keep apart?
We think its normal that the rich live separated from everyone else and that are neighborhoods are often segregated by wealth or join private clubs and attend private schools. ( I don't even have to mention the past.)
From Fudge's behavior I get the feeling that a lot of nonpurebloods reinforced the pureblood superiority by Kowtowing to purebloods and treating them as special. So no one questioned the inherent sickness in the system.
Not all purebloods entered Slytherin, just the ones for whom being pureblooded was important.
I wonder in the post war world how even the term pureblood would be seen. The effects of this way of thinking brought some terrible things. The younger generation who lived under the Carrows and suffered from his thinking might hate the word and the concept after having blood status drummed into them.
I portray Alice Longbottom as having been proud of being a pureblood. I think Neville would hate the concept after his seventh year. The name itself implies other people's blood is impure. I wonder if the word pureblood goes the way of mudblood the way no one but a neonazi would use the term Aryan today.
Some of the Slytherin pureblood students might hate the word too for other reasons. Some might be in jail, while others might see friends or parents in jail or dead. They might see the idea as a dead end ideology that did nothing for them in the end. They might want to escape all stigma and flee the word. Maybe the idea is clung to by a few families, but many would want to avoid too clear a display of pureblood pride. (The way racist beliefs have to be slipped under the surface today.)
IN that respect fewer students might want to be a pureblood in Slytherin.
How independent is the sorting hat's mind? Can he simply be reasoned with? Will he obey the Headmaster or the head of Slytherin? Who would do the magical change if that was needed?
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Post by starsea on Jul 18, 2009 17:43:41 GMT -5
There are halfbloods in Slytherin, though. Tom Riddle was one. Millicent Bulstrode, I believe, is a halfblood and Harry was told that he would go far in Slytherin, despite having a Muggleborn mother. Being a pureblood isn't an absolute requirement, it just 'helps'.
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Post by vegablack on Jul 18, 2009 18:02:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I got carried away with the pureblood thing.
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Post by queenie on Jul 19, 2009 1:43:20 GMT -5
Besides, Ernie MacMillan, of Hufflepuff, can say off the top of his head how many generations of his family are pureblooded. He's close friends with Justin, a Muggleborn, so his prejudice doesn't stand in his way of forming close personal bonds, but he clearly is proud of it (though, granted, he was using it as a shield against the suspected Heir of Slytherin - whom he despised.)
I mean, I'm proud of my Irish and Lebanese heritages, but I can't name off the top of my head what generation I am of either, or what villages my family's ancestors came from - though that may be because my family is mixed, and we live apart from our extended families where this thing may be more widely known.
Maybe the idea of the Houses is based on an extended dormitory system to make sure that kids are rooming with children with similar interests and temperaments - Ravenclaw's common room has access to a lot of books, and it's probably by and large a much quieter place than Gryffindor or Hufflepuff's common rooms. And a Hufflepuff will never have to worry about rooming with someone who'll create unnecessary drama or laugh off the idea of hard work ("what are you doing studying? It's Sa-tur-day night!")
However, it's not like the kids are forced to remain in Houses outside of their common rooms. In fact, students take classes with opposite Houses so they'll get to know each other and learn from each other, how each other studies, approaches projects, and etc. It doesn't always work (Gryffindors flying with Slytherins = Bad Idea) but the intent and the idea is there.
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Post by vegablack on Jul 19, 2009 11:22:17 GMT -5
My post had to have been the least thought out post in the history of posts. Sorry I meant to say that the idea that Purebloods might naturally want to be together was a sort of general attitude toward the fact that Slytherin lists being pureblood as one of the basic traits of being in Slytherin. I knew that not all purebloods wanted to be segregated with purebloods. The Weasleys and the McMillans were in my mind when I mentioned pureblood families that had traditions of membership in nonslytherin houses. Ernie is interesting because he is obviously proud of his pureblood heritage yet seems to accept nonpurebloods as friends freely. (There might be a little noblesse oblige there. It's my job to protect the nonpurebloods in my house from bigots because I can. But I don't think so; he seems to be genuinely sincere.) I agree that the houses are not so completely segregated. People obviously date outside their houses so they must mix socially at some time, perhaps during hogsmeade weekends, in the great hall, in shared classes, and while rooting for quidditch games that don't involve their own house. Harry for a lot of reasons doesn't have a typical social life.
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Post by queenie on Aug 20, 2009 3:06:29 GMT -5
It occurred to me that it's possible for Slytherin to salvage its reputation and build itself anew on something other than pure-bloodedness. The Sorting Hat in book 1 says,
"Or yet perhaps in Slytherin you'll make your real friends."
and in the fourth year, it assures us, "For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor? Unless it was the second pair of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?"
I admit, the first line I always read as kind of sarcastic - any Slytherin would stab a friend in the back as soon as hug 'em, right? Right? But I've been thinking it over. Also, we have to assume that the second line is true, and not nostalgia taking over... but the Hat seems to have a pretty solid grip on history, at least as much as a thousand-year-old sombrero can have. It's an excellent judge of character, at least.
I was thinking that the line, "Perhaps you'll find your real friends" could indicate that Slytherins are by nature a clannish sort. We see the worst of it in their "Half bloods good, Pure bloods better" mentality, but nonetheless, Draco is extremely upset at Crabbe's death in Deathly Hallows. Any of the Malfoys would die or kill for another - and that extends to Bellatrix's love for her own sister. Regulus considered Kreacher to be worth dying for. Slughorn clearly harbors a deep affection for his favored students and would stick his plump neck out very far for them - witness his spirited fight at the Battle of Hogwarts.
What I'm driving at here is that Slytherins, in addition to priding ambition, shrewdness, resourcefulness, and a certain disregard for rules, also value close connections, tightly knit groups of friends, even if they don't express it. Such connections can be dangerous - witness the Death Eaters - but they are also, well, the building blocks of society, like the Weasleys or the Dream Team of Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Our families and friends are a major part of our lives.
Picture the Founders. Hufflepuff may have been righteous, Gryffindor brave, Ravenclaws was certainly clever, but perhaps it was Salazar Slytherin who put the most into keeping the group a cohesive, workable unit - a task of much cunning, with their undoubtedly different personalities, and one which it would have taken ambition to sustain, the ambition to see a fine school of wizardry built in the middle of nowhere (or what was nowhere back then.) I read a suggestion somewhere that Slytherin didn't want Muggleborns in his school because he felt they weren't trustworthy - that they would sell out their schoolmates to the witch hunters. Hardly a dismissable fear at that time. And, the Hat says that after Slytherin left, the other three, let alone four, were never united as they had been before. It doesn't say that they all kicked back with some beer and were like "Finally! Been waiting to see the back of that old monkey for years now!" Fanon of the four founders depicts Hufflepuff as the team Heart, as the one who kept the group together, but, maybe, it was Slytherin.
Just saying. Slytherin could rebuild itself on a platform of people who value close personal friendships and are willing to put a lot into them, in addition to ambition and cunning and la di da. And yes, I just described Slytherin in terms of a political candidate who's trying to market a new and improved version of himself. That's all.
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Post by vegablack on Aug 22, 2009 14:01:53 GMT -5
"What I'm driving at here is that Slytherins, in addition to priding ambition, shrewdness, resourcefulness, and a certain disregard for rules, also value close connections, tightly knit groups of friends, even if they don't express it. Such connections can be dangerous - witness the Death Eaters - but they are also, well, the building blocks of society.... "
I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't think the real friends remark was meant to be sarcastic, though I think I might have thought so when I first read it. JKR went out of her way to give Slytherins strength in their friendships. Even the concept of being pureblood is about cohesion and loyalty and sticking together of one type of people.
To hear some supposedly Slytherin fans (and foes) talk, the characters are barely human with no true bonds or feeling for other people.
I think you are right. The Slytherins are tight knit and seem to value each other. However much that doesn't fit in our image of them. I remember the scene where Lucius puts his arm around Snape when he takes his seat at the table for the first time as a Slytherin. They seem bonded. We should make it part of our vision of the house.
I don't agree with the argument given by some for why Slytherin distrusted muggleborns. Supperiority tends to appear self-evident to those sure of their own. They don't need an argument except when their bigotry is challenged by a change of thought in the rest of the populous. I think the superiority of wizards was self-evident to him. The idea that wizards born to wizard parents with no non-magical blood at all were better would follow.
I could see in time Slytherin being an attractive choice for those who wanted valued ambition, skill and a close knit circle of powerful friends.
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Post by vegablack on Aug 25, 2009 23:40:24 GMT -5
I'm bumping this up because I thought that Queenie's post was interesting and was sorry to see it was buried.
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Post by birdg on Aug 31, 2009 11:10:23 GMT -5
That's probably the influence of fanon. Fandom desperately wants Slytherin House to be Valmont with all the intrigue and double-crossing that implies and with all the warmth of a block of ice.
For some reason, fandom as a whole tends to devalue any signs of personal affection, friendships, love or loyalty seen among Slytherins. We can use the Malfoys as a guide here - Lucius and Narcissa marriage is assumed to be arranged (as Draco and Asteria's marriage will be) despite no evidence of such marriages existing in canon. And their marriage will exist for the sole purpose of providing an heir. Draco (like Scorpius will be) is a heir first and a son second, his parents are often written as distant (despite NUMEROUS incidents suggesting otherwise) at best and abusive at worst.
When Draco grows up, he starts seeing Pansy for appearances and because they're to be betrothed or whatever inane reason fandom invents. These are the same reasons he will get together with Asteria later on. He has no affection for Pansy nor does he have any affection for Crabbe or Goyle despite mourning the former and risking his life trying to save the latter. Even with characters like Blaise and Theodore, both of whom fandom tends to like better, it's rare they have any sort of genuine friendship with Draco.
I used to wonder if it was just a bias against Pansy or Asteria that was the reason why their relationships with Draco are written in such a similar manner and while that's like 50% of it, I think the other half is that many in fandom can't see a relationship between two Slytherins as being genuine or loving. Perhaps that's part of the reason why Draco/Insert Random Gryffindor Here pairings are so popular - a big trope in all of them seems to be that Gryffindor being the first to spark affection/love/passion within Draco. Perhaps that's to complete the entire Valmont comparison so many of them see but without Draco dying at the end.
This is odd to me for two reasons.
1.) This coldness we see in Slytherins is usually when they're interacting with Harry or his friends. Or in other words - people they don't like. I don't know why fandom imagines that Slytherins would treat their friends and lovers with the same contempt they do their rivals and enemies. 2.) It's been shown again (Snape and Lily) and again (the Malfoys) and again (Regulus and Kreacher) and again (Bellatrix and Voldemort) and again (Draco and Goyle) and again (Andromeda and Ted) and again (Bloody Baron and the Gray Lady) that Slytherins are capable of passion, affection and love. Sometimes even in that obsessive, unhealthy, destructive Byronic way that you think fandom would love.
There's a line in a Vienna Teng song that I've always thought would sum up the Slytherin approach to love very well: "For you I'd burn the length and breadth of sky."
I think you're right but I don't think ambition and cunning are the big problems with Slytherin. It's the pure-blood supremacy.
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Post by vegablack on Aug 31, 2009 18:35:18 GMT -5
I agree with you, especially your last line.
Harry notices two scenes which show the strength of Slytherin Solidarity which most fans ignore. When Harry looks at Regulus's Quidditch team photo he sees a seeker like himself who feels the same kind of bond and camaraderie with his teammates that Harry feels. The only difference between it and one Harry might have had of his team was the wiggling Snakes on the jerseys. It's a sign of his growing maturity that Harry who has previously only seen Slytherins in the most negative light notices this. Later in Snape's memory of being sorted, Snape is greeted warmly by an older Malfoy at the Slytherin house table. In my memory Malfoy puts his arm around Snape's back at the table, whether that is accurate or not the greeting was warm and welcoming enough to prompt that impression. Both these instances show Slytherin house members as warm and supportive and friends oriented as anyone in Hogwarts.
(Malfoy's welcoming warmth to Snape helps explain the vulnerability youth had to recruitment by Death Eaters. It was almost certainly done through friends at school. We're told that kids ran around with others who were members. A lonely kid would be particularly vulnerable. Also oddly its ignored by a lot of Snapites who prefer to imagine Snape as an outcast in his own house.)
How would that welcome have felt to a young awkward Snape who appears to have only had one friend before this? This moment shows a strength of the house system. Both Neville and Snape, very different but ironically equally socially awkward boys, have a place in their house where they are welcome if only because they are members of the house. Neville is defended by Parvati, and befriended and encouraged by Harry and Ron largely because he is a member of their house. Luna seems to be an exception to this, I think for reasons unique to her and her house. That the other houses share this support of their own members doesn't take away from the fact that it is found in Slytherin too.
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Post by queenie on Sept 30, 2009 18:03:30 GMT -5
That warm greeting could actually be a common ground between Gryffindor and Slytherin - I seem to remember enthusiastic greetings to newly sorted Gryffindors, as well, and not just Harry, either. However, I can imagine Ravenclaws and maybe even Hufflepuffs being a little more wary, waiting for the new students to prove themselves before being fully accepted. Luna's treatment in her own House, and to an extent, even Moaning Myrtle, seems to attest to this.
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