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Post by Author By Night on Feb 15, 2009 11:02:49 GMT -5
What makes an OC different from a Sue? Or should OCs not exist, period? And what really makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue?
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Post by doctoraicha on Feb 16, 2009 12:26:10 GMT -5
Mary Sues (and Gary Stus) are not just a "self-insertion." While an OC can be a Mary Sue if it is an obvious self-insertion, there is a lot more to it than that. I think the problem with them is that the OC is perfect.
First, self insertion: they are really problematic when the character doesn't fit. An American or Australian teenager from 2008 doesn't belong in POA fic. Frankly neither does a British teenager, but that's a bit easier, as long as there is a good reason for the teenager being there. If a british writer models a character on themselves as a villager in Ottery St. Catchpole, it could work, but I think there's a much bigger chance that it will fail miserably.
Second, most of what we think of as Mary Sues are actually not self insertions. If I was to model a character on myself, I would improve all the things that I want to change about myself physically, especially. I'd be this amazing witch who never went to Hogwarts and etc etc etc. Also I'd have aquamarine eyes, and I'd be magnetic to Charlie Weasley, and he would never marry after I was killed in the war. Or whatever. Heh. That's why I shouldn't put myself in there. It would be ridiculous.
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Post by Author By Night on Feb 16, 2009 17:29:41 GMT -5
Also I'd have aquamarine eyes, and I'd be magnetic to Charlie Weasley, and he would never marry after I was killed in the war. Or whatever. Heh. That's why I shouldn't put myself in there. It would be ridiculous. That's a very good point. I think that it's one thing to self insert a teeny bit - even JK Rowling admits that there's a bit of her in Harry and Hermione. However, she's also clearly a very different person. Also: I think that's one thing a lot of Mary Sue writers forget: You have to make your OC fit in the universe he or she is in. You can't create your own character and expect her to just mix in perfectly with an already established universe; you have to find a place to put her in, and then keep her in that spot. You also have to remember certain themes and dynamics - for instance, nobody would ever replace Ron or Hermione; making your OC their replacement, therefore, is simply upstaging their roles.
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Post by mo on Feb 18, 2009 21:33:07 GMT -5
That's a very good point. I think that it's one thing to self insert a teeny bit - even JK Rowling admits that there's a bit of her in Harry and Hermione. However, she's also clearly a very different person. Ah, but here lies that crucial line between a character that the author feels a kinship with and a character who is a blatant self-insertion. There are so many hallmarks of a Mary Sue...the flawless physical beauty, the inappropriate anachronistic details, the overwrought silly name. SO, just for fun, here are my examples of OC possibilities, as if Mo herself were writing: OFC, no insertion: Harriet is a sweet, chubby Hufflepuff. She's pureblood, but not a bigot. However, she didn't believe Harry Potter until it was too late -- she thought he was just stirring up trouble, and she hates trouble! OFC, total insertion: Mo is a 40 year old American mum who just discovered her magical powers! Hijinks ensue as she must go back to school with a bunch of British teenagers! OFC, Mary Sue division: Meau VonShylteton is the beautiful heiress to a magical fortune. The boys of Hogwarts are all captivated by her from the moment her Ferrari pulls in to the Hogwarts driveway...but, this mysterious beauty with amber eyes and waist length Titian hair is hiding a tragic past. Only her brilliant mind and loving heart can save her when the truth comes out...SHE'S HARRY POTTER'S LONG LOST TWIN SISTER! Oh, lordy. I love to write intentionally bad stuff. I can't help it. It's a compulsion.
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Post by vegablack on Feb 19, 2009 2:09:57 GMT -5
The problem with a Mary Sue isn't that she is a self insert or an OC. All writers use a self-insert to some extent. Every writer has a character react as they would or express opinions they would or the experiences they had. (Does Dickens have self inserts or Salinger?) I don't have a character exactly like me but I have characters who spout my opinions or have been strongly influenced by my personality. I've written real conversations I've had with my husband in a few of my stories.
I love OC's and have written a few, some of whom I'm proud of. In some stories you have to have them because there is not a JKR character that can play the role you need in the story.
A Mary sue is written to please the writer and not to do anything to the reader. In her worst form she dominates every conversation and preforms every task so there is no room for the other characters to act -- the toxic Mary Sue.
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Post by doctoraicha on Feb 19, 2009 18:34:13 GMT -5
SO, just for fun, here are my examples of OC possibilities, as if Mo herself were writing:
OFC, no insertion: Harriet is a sweet, chubby Hufflepuff. She's pureblood, but not a bigot. However, she didn't believe Harry Potter until it was too late -- she thought he was just stirring up trouble, and she hates trouble!
OFC, total insertion: Mo is a 40 year old American mum who just discovered her magical powers! Hijinks ensue as she must go back to school with a bunch of British teenagers!
OFC, Mary Sue division: Meau VonShylteton is the beautiful heiress to a magical fortune. The boys of Hogwarts are all captivated by her from the moment her Ferrari pulls in to the Hogwarts driveway...but, this mysterious beauty with amber eyes and waist length Titian hair is hiding a tragic past. Only her brilliant mind and loving heart can save her when the truth comes out...SHE'S HARRY POTTER'S LONG LOST TWIN SISTER!
asdfghjklkjhgfdsfghjkl;ljhgfdsdfghjkl;!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!! Oh, let's have an "intentionally bad character" thread. Or bad fic drabble writing content.
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Post by vegablack on Feb 19, 2009 19:29:28 GMT -5
How did the name Dickens in my post turn into thingyen? That will be a mystery that I'll never solve.
I think the bad character or bad drabble thread is an excellent idea.
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Post by Author By Night on Feb 19, 2009 20:13:10 GMT -5
How did the name thingyens in my post turn into thingyen? That will be a mystery that I'll never solve. I just figured it out - were you trying to type d i c k e n s? d_ck = thingy in "reserved words." Perhaps I can find a way to amend that. I like the idea of an intentionally bad OC thread; I think that OCs can actually really work, but people have to understand why they don't. Mo, you have excellent points. Those are all different categories. Hm, perhaps you could write more about Mo!Sue?
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Post by vegablack on Feb 19, 2009 20:22:07 GMT -5
I just figured it out - were you trying to type d i c k e n s? d_ck = thingy in "reserved words." Perhaps I can find a way to amend that.
;D I found that very funny. I was kicking myself for doing such a bad job of editing my post last night. Come to think of it, I should have figured that out.
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 21, 2009 22:59:11 GMT -5
I've only written OOC characters twice and was only happy with one of them. I admit that I dislike reading them in fics ninety-nine per cent of the time.
I'm not familiar with "self insertion." I've always understood Mary Sues and Gary Stus to not just mean an OOC character but one who is perfect, sort of the Stepford wife type of character.
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Post by birdg on Feb 22, 2009 5:54:12 GMT -5
Not to be pedantic but I think you mean "OC", pigwithhair. "OOC" means "out-of-character" and I doubt you'd write anyone like that!
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 22, 2009 10:47:23 GMT -5
Appreciate the kind word, BirdG. Actually I meant out of canon, which is also used as OOC like OC can mean other character or outside canon. I should have just spelled it out to avoid confusion.
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Post by mo on Feb 22, 2009 12:00:46 GMT -5
I'd be totally willing to create a few prompts for Bad! Fic drabbles....we don't have to settle for general bad...we can have a period dedicated to MarySues, one devoted to Fanfic Cliches, one devoted to Fanon, one for Movie Abominations. (Like when John Noe on Pottercast said that if Kloves wrote the HBP script, Hermione would be shoving Dumbledore off the tower)
I hosted a series of challenges for Office fanfic a few years ago, featuring Bad fic in the Romance, Smut, Angst, and Slash divisions. All were delightfully awful.
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nundu
Second Year
Posts: 25
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Post by nundu on Feb 26, 2009 9:17:35 GMT -5
*rubs hands with glee* This sounds like tooooo much fun!
I'll be the first to admit, my Molly is me all over in my fics. I can't help it...we're the same age and her mothering style is very like my own, except I like to think I don't hover quite as much, but it takes work!
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Post by kelleypen on Feb 28, 2009 9:19:28 GMT -5
I definitely want to play with the really bad drabbles.
I was beta for a girl on PS but she sent me a fic that would not work for any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn't even send it to the admins. I just told her it wasn't a PS type fic because it was too out of canon, which was true. But it was about Harry's lost twin sister who has red hair and green eyes and Fred and George love her because she can out prank them, and she's smarter than Hermione, and Draco reforms for her, and her fatal flaw is that she has a bad temper, and she has been hidden so that no one ever knew the Potters had two children so as to protect her, so she started off school in America and transferred to Hogwarts during 6th year . . . .
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Post by magikcat on Feb 28, 2009 12:24:11 GMT -5
I'm wary about reading original characters, too. Usually I take a look if someone who I feel is a prolific writer recommends it (i.e. "A Muggle's Point of View").
Same thing with the next generations fics (because even though technically they're "canon," we know nothing about them so they can be given any personality they like). I've wandered into a some that seem interesting but usually I like to see if it's recommended first.
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Post by queenie on Mar 16, 2009 0:28:10 GMT -5
I'm wary about reading original characters, too. Aah, this distresses me. Ever since I first started writing fanfiction, I've always tended to focus on original characters that I slip into the world, who usually have very little interaction with the 'original' cast - for example, a Sailor Moon fanfiction that creates Sailor Scouts to serve as the team for Sailor Moon's granddaughter. Now I've just finished a (okay, finished in January) fanfiction that has only three canon characters who turn up with much regularity or impact on the plot: Dora Tonks, Luna Lovegood, and Dolores Umbridge. Oh, and Mr. Ollivander - he's kind of a big deal. The story deals with his extended family and how they react to the news of his kidnapping, and what adventures are thrust upon them. Do you think I'll have a difficult time attracting readers? And if so, what can I do to counteract it?
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Post by birdg on Mar 16, 2009 15:43:02 GMT -5
I feel the same way, I must admit, about both OCs and characters that we know so little about they may as well be OCs (like the Next Gen or the surprise canon spouses). For the former, I find a lot of them to be very bland and uninspiring and they tend to make me wonder when the characters I really care about will show up.
For the latter, it's all the same problems as above but I've noticed people tend to copy their characterizations from other fanfic writerss so you get 100 fics where Asteria Greengrass is an inspid pureblood tropy wife like some blander version of Narcissa, where Rose Weasley is just as smart as her mother but prettier and has a blander, "more palatable" personality and so on and so forth. It's very dull.
I'm always willing to give such fics a chance though I am a bit wary about OC/Canon love interest fics. I have read tons of great fics revolving around OCs or lesser known characters but I've read lots of horrible ones too.
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Post by Author By Night on Mar 16, 2009 16:27:46 GMT -5
I Now I've just finished a (okay, finished in January) fanfiction that has only three canon characters who turn up with much regularity or impact on the plot: Dora Tonks, Luna Lovegood, and Dolores Umbridge. Oh, and Mr. Ollivander - he's kind of a big deal. The story deals with his extended family and how they react to the news of his kidnapping, and what adventures are thrust upon them. Do you think I'll have a difficult time attracting readers? And if so, what can I do to counteract it? Actually, I think you have an advantage. Earlier I mentioned making a character "fit" into the world. Your OCs still relates enough that it's worth reading - they are related to Ollivander, who really has an important role as a character, and we'll see characters we are familiar with. From what I have read of your story, you really make a point to include Tonks with one particular OC. On the other hand, we're not made to accept that Harry knows this OC really well, even though she's never shown up in canon or been alluded to in canon. We're not made to accept that she's a Weasley sibling hidden in the attic all this time. She relates to characters we know well enough that we care about her through caring about them, but at the same time, we don't have any reason to believe she's not plausible. We don't know that Luna doesn't have a cousin. We don't know that Ollivander doesn't have children. Does that make sense? Now, I do admit that in general, OCs send off alarms. But the characters relating to the OCs are important enough, and yet not so important, that it shouldn't be as big a deal as it would be if these were relatives of Harry's.
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Post by Ilene Bones on Mar 31, 2009 19:56:17 GMT -5
I think OC fics are often a matter of preference. Some people prefer reading about canon characters only, and that's fine. Personally, I like OC fics and have written OC fics myself, though it seems my niche has become writing about minor characters who might as well be OCs (such as Andromeda Black Tonks). Also, I'd also much rather read a fic centered on an OC than a fic that supposedly has only canon characters but have them act wildly OOC (out of character).
As for Mary Sue vs self-insertion; agreed that any character you create has some degree of self-insertion. I did some student drama when I was younger and I think writing is somewhat like acting; you have to find something you can relate to in the character you are playing in order to play the role well. The problem with Mary Sues, beyond being too perfect, is that they are often used for wish-fulfillment, the Suethor is not writing about herself but who she'd like to be, and wouldn't all of us like to be perfect? So perhaps one way to guard against an OC becoming a Sue is to include your faults in the character as well. Of course this means you have to be aware of your flaws and that can be very difficult.
I also freely admit to using real life people as models for some of my OCs, or to better understand canon characters. (This is one reason I like to keep my off-line life private.) For example, I know someone in real life who reminds me a little bit of Peter Pettigrew, and I mentioned him in the Pettigrew topic in another forum. That doesn't mean I think this RL person would ever betray his friends to a Dark Lord. However, I have observed him with some friends who tease him a lot, in a good-natured way, but with a definite vibe of "You're not quite as cool as we are but we like you anyway". So I've drawn on that observation when writing about MWPP.
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