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Post by Mirabelle on May 20, 2009 22:47:43 GMT -5
If someone has a better suggestion for a title, please let me know.
Doris Crockford said in another thread:
and that got me thinking about Hogwarts and how it doesn't just educate magical children but also serves to isolate the Muggleborn kids and draw them further into the wizarding world. In another thread, someone brought up the fact that the Muggleborns clearly lacked any skills which would have allowed them to survive in the Muggle world during the events of DH which is why they're beggars once they lose their wands. Why couldn't they depend on their non-magical relatives to help them out?
I also wonder if it's not so much that the wizarding world is unaware of technological advances but has deliberately chosen not to use them because they want to maintain that cultural separation. Yes, ball point pens are better than quills but I was never under the impression the quills the students used at Hogwarts was inferior to a ball point--I don't remember anyone complaining about having to sharpen a point or having to carry around ink bottles. While electronics doesn't work at Hogwarts, low level technology like ball point pens should yet we don't see or hear of any Muggleborns using them.
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Post by doriscrockford on May 21, 2009 5:34:51 GMT -5
Wow, I've been quoted! :blushes:
Regarding the ballpoint pen, I think it is a more traditional British characteristic than perhaps an American one that if what you have works fine, there is no need to change. "Upgrades" were not common practice for the average Brit until recently (thanks television and internet, and now our economy is paying the price. But I digress). I think it's because there has always been less disposable cash and (again, until recently) tradition was most important.
The point you bring up about the muggleborn's families is very interesting. I've often wondered what happened to the muggleborns whose parents DIDN'T allow them to go to Hogwarts. What were their lives like? Were their untrained magical abilities dangerous or did they fade away? I would imagine that a lot of religious parents would balk at the idea of sending their children to a school of WITCHCRAFT and wizardry, and I wonder how they treated those children after the Hogwarts visitor left. Perhaps some of the children left begging were abandoned by their families when it was discovered they were different. I don't know. It's an interesting question and I look forward to hearing what other people think.
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Post by dancingpony on May 21, 2009 11:45:10 GMT -5
That's a good point, and I think the answer would vary considerably, depending on family circumstances.
A young muggleborn witch or wizard -- for instance, one who hasn't even finished school -- would be in the best position to return to the muggle world and her/his muggle family. Some would refuse to do so, however. Take Dean Thomas, for instance. He most likely could have returned to his muggle family, but he chose to go into hiding. The book didn't explore his reasoning. Perhaps he thought "going home" would put his family in more danger . . . or perhaps he simply didn't want to give up his ties to the magical world.
The older the witch or wizard, though, the further removed she or he would be from the muggle world. It would be a bit like a forty or fifty-something (muggle) adult suddenly deciding to "go home" to her or his parents or other family members. Can the parents or family members afford to take on the care and keeping of that person? Would she or he be able to blend back in to a world that was left behind years and years previously? Would the social stigma be a complicating factor? Is "home" even there anymore for those witches and wizards? Parents may be dead . . . there might not be siblings . . . other, more distant family members might barely remember the person. Plus, you have to add in the possibility that the wandless witch or wizard could be placing those muggle family member in danger simply from association.
On another tangent, I was reading the thread about Hermione and her parents and Hermione's decision to obliviate her parents' memory of her and send them out of the country. I don't think that was something her parents would have wanted or agreed to . . . but what good choices did she have? As a muggle born witch, Herminone more than likely didn't have the option of returning to school. If she went before the muggle born registration commission, she almost certainly would have lost her wand and been expelled. At that point, she would be dependent on her parents and unable to protect them or herself from danger. They all would be in danger, simply because of her past relationship with Harry. So what better option was there? Even Ron had to take rather drastic measures to protect his family because of his relationship with Harry, and he was pure blood and had the option of returning to school and "playing along" with the new regime. Hermione -- and any other muggle born student -- didn't have that option.
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Post by Chocolatepot on May 21, 2009 18:56:39 GMT -5
I've wondered whether Hogwarts fakes up credentials for Muggleborn students who want to go back to the Muggle world - there could be some kind of memory charm in the transcripts to keep people from trying to research the school. But just now it occurred to me that everything's done on computers now, and there's no way anyone on the Hogwarts staff could manage a computer, even if they were somehow able to work on the grounds.
I'd love to read a fic about a fifth year struggling with the choice of staying in the wizarding world or leaving it to go after their true passion.
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Rugi
Third Year
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Posts: 33
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Post by Rugi on May 22, 2009 5:45:30 GMT -5
I've wondered whether Hogwarts fakes up credentials for Muggleborn students who want to go back to the Muggle world - there could be some kind of memory charm in the transcripts to keep people from trying to research the school. But just now it occurred to me that everything's done on computers now, and there's no way anyone on the Hogwarts staff could manage a computer, even if they were somehow able to work on the grounds. I'd love to read a fic about a fifth year struggling with the choice of staying in the wizarding world or leaving it to go after their true passion. Well any muggle-born student who wanted to go back after say, third or fourth year, would probably have a tough time. We're talking about a student who has not studied math, science, literature, (muggle) history, music, art, languages, etc in years. They'd need serious remedial classes before they'd be able to function.
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Post by Mirabelle on May 23, 2009 0:44:52 GMT -5
I'm imagining my parents' reactions if I came home from boarding school without any practical knowledge and, best case scenario, my parents hire a tutor and make me learn reading, writing, and 'rithmatic over the summer.
I think one of the reasons why some parents of muggleborns are willing to let their kids go to Hogwarts is because they're partly afraid of their own kids and what they're capable of doing. We know young children are capable of inadvertent magic and I bet most parents weren't all that surprised when they were told their child was different.
Makes me wonder if magical ability, if not exercised, atrophies.
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Rugi
Third Year
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Post by Rugi on May 23, 2009 7:53:46 GMT -5
I'm imagining my parents' reactions if I came home from boarding school without any practical knowledge and, best case scenario, my parents hire a tutor and make me learn reading, writing, and 'rithmatic over the summer. Yeah - that's a good point. Though, if you'd been in Hogwarts for more than a year, one summer doesn't sound like it would be enough. Three years of math can't be learned in like a month or two. I'm trying to imagine my parents' reaction if I came home from school without ever having a literature class... That's such a good point. It seems sad to think that parents could have kids who frightened them, but it does make sense. I mean even the cute stuff Harry did was weird and unsettling. Imagine if you had a Riddle-esque child - who could control you mentally or hurt you?
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Post by dancingpony on May 23, 2009 12:19:22 GMT -5
In the story I'm currently working on (after a period of inactivity when SQ went down), the main character is a muggle born witch whose parents refused to allow her to go to Hogwarts. A memory charm was performed on her when she was eleven, to make her forget about the invitation to Hogwarts -- but a wand has fallen into her possession, so now she's learning about the wizarding world.
The way I'm handling this --
is to show that, when she was young, she was prone to the unintentional spurts of magic common among young wizards who haven't learned to control their emotional outbursts . . . but now that she's older (she's twentyish), and more emotionally mature, those kinds of incidents are rare. However, her magical ability is still there, and she's going to learn to use it.
I'm not quite to the point where she's going to confront her parents about the situation -- but they had a specific reason why she wasn't allowed to go to Hogwarts.
The story is still on the SQ "latest fan fiction" page if anyone has any input/thoughts. It's called A Butterfly's Wings.
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Post by queenie on May 23, 2009 14:39:14 GMT -5
I don't think that magic atrophies if it's not exercised - though certainly control of magic is something that would decay and decline if not given exercise, like how if a synchronized swimmer were to spend three years doing nothing but relays and races, they would still be strong swimmers, but would have lost much of the finesse and grace and control needed for synchro.
But of course, that's a different question than if one stops swimming entirely... now the question is, how inherent is magical ability?
We do know that levels of magic are affected by despair. I can certainly imagine a young Muggleborn witch or wizard being greatly affected by the letter - if not plunging into a deep well of despair, then just having a kind of melancholy that affects them persistently over their lives - I'm doing this, but I could be doing something that I know is more me. And then as that melancholy grows as the years go by, maybe their magic falters and weakens. However, dancing pony's idea of a Memory Charm on them makes a lot of sense. If they don't appreciate one hundred per cent the need for secrecy from Muggles, they might boast about being a witch/wizard to their friends, (if it's not a source of shame) or otherwise put that knowledge to ill use.
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Post by starsea on May 23, 2009 18:44:13 GMT -5
I would agree that it would be especially difficult for kids after the ages of 14, mainly because you take SATs at that age, which are mandatory national exams. A secondary school would want transcripts or exam certificates and Muggleborn students wouldn't have them. As for kids in the fifth and sixth years, forget it. If they haven't taken GCSEs, they're really stuck. Most jobs nowadays require you to have at least a C grade in Maths, English and Science GCSEs. Muggleborns would be relegated to the most menial jobs on the market, unable to even legally practise their magic.
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Post by dancingpony on May 25, 2009 12:03:50 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this.
More than likely, any student facing this kind of dilemma would be muggle born. I can't picture a boy or girl, brought up in the wizarding world, suddenly being exposed to and developing a passion for a muggle activity or profession and wanting to give up magic to pursue it.
Actually, there are very few circumstances where I could see a muggle born student having this dilemma. Most kids of fifteen or sixteen haven't developed a strong passion for any particular future. Those that have usually fall into a few specific categores: science and medicine (which could be practiced in the wizarding world); art (which also exists in the wizarding world, although we don't see art classes at Hogwarts); and sports (which exist in the wizarding world, just not the same sports that muggles play.)
A student who wanted to drop out of Hogwarts and return to muggle schooling probably would be someone who never fit in well (for some reason, Murtle comes to mind) rather than someone who developed a sudden passion for soccer over summer vacation.
It's an interesting concept, though.
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Post by Chocolatepot on May 26, 2009 11:17:11 GMT -5
It would definitely be very rare, but I could see some Muggleborn kid finding a book on linguistics or genetics or something else that you want to get more education in, and being struck with how amazing it is.
If a student were to go back to the Muggle world after the NEWTs, they could conceivably do all right at university without math and science - British universities don't do Gen Ed, do they? If the student were just post-OWLs and had to go to a comprehensive school before uni, the parents might be able to say that they'd been at some kind of experimental school where math and science wasn't taught, and hire a tutor.
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Rugi
Third Year
Norberta's Chief Cook and Librarian
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Post by Rugi on May 26, 2009 15:11:45 GMT -5
It would definitely be very rare, but I could see some Muggleborn kid finding a book on linguistics or genetics or something else that you want to get more education in, and being struck with how amazing it is. If a student were to go back to the Muggle world after the NEWTs, they could conceivably do all right at university without math and science - British universities don't do Gen Ed, do they? If the student were just post-OWLs and had to go to a comprehensive school before uni, the parents might be able to say that they'd been at some kind of experimental school where math and science wasn't taught, and hire a tutor. But it wouldn't just be no math and science. Our hypothetical 17 year-old would have had no literature, no history, no civics, no drama, no music, no art, and no foreign languages either. I can't really think of a single university subject they would be anywhere near adequately prepared for.
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Post by Mirabelle on May 26, 2009 22:48:32 GMT -5
The wizarding world does not make it easy for a magical person to leave. Hogwarts plays into that by not teaching any non-magical subjects. Once you decide to go to Hogwarts you're pretty much stuck with your decision after a certain point. The Ministry could try to make it easier for people who want to straddle both worlds by having programs to teach non-magical subjects or arrangements with some universities for enrolling magical students but I don't think the Ministry would think it's in the best interest of the WW.
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Post by Chocolatepot on May 27, 2009 10:49:44 GMT -5
But that's assuming that they don't do any preparation before they get to uni. Someone who managed to discover that their vocation is something Muggle while attending Hogwarts would have to be driven anyway - I don't think it would be a stretch to learn the basics over a summer or a year. And really, you don't need civics, literature, drama, music, and art for university unless you're doing them. Take anthropology, which is really the only one I know about in depth*: aside from the very basics of history, there's nothing you need going in. I'm the only person I know who used their foreign language at university for their subject (translating articles for a paper), and the other language I took there started at the beginning - the fact that I knew French made Italian much easier, but it wasn't necessary. The point of high school's breadth of subject was more about proving that you can work than about learning information you need - a lot of what I did in high school was either totally irrelevant (physics, economics, US history) or needed to be repeated (chemistry).
* also because I think that the social sciences are just about the only things one would choose to go to a Muggle university for in-universe
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Post by cuthbertbinns on May 27, 2009 21:23:40 GMT -5
This is a great topic! On days when I have spent too much time thinking about Jo's wizarding world I have often wondered about its interaction with the muggle world. And here the topic is being discussed!
(I hope no one minds if I jump back to the beginning of the thread.)
I agree with doris in that the wizarding world does to a large extent exist as if it were in an earlier era. I've always seen it as a sort of nineteenth century, pastoral, pre-industrial revolution society. I imagine this was deliberate on Jo's part to give her world a more interesting flavor. If it were too much the same as our own reality it wouldn't be nearly as fun.
It also makes sense. Since wizards accomplish most of their tasks with magic, the burst of technology that occurred starting in the nineteenth century mattered little to them. As a result, though the muggle world began to change radically, the wizard world remained much the same as it had always been. But even so, some changes were adopted and others no doubt worked their way into wizard society whether they were wanted or not.
This also ties in with what Mirabelle said in her first post: that there is likely some effort on the part of wizards to maintain a cultural separation. I can imagine that some in established wizard society worry about the new ideas muggleborn wizards bring with them and try to temper the flow of muggle influence. Wizard purists such as the DE's are an extreme example of this, but even your average wizard may prefer not to have too much muggledom seep in.
Wizard education is another interesting topic. I too thought it odd at first that some parts of a basic education seemed to be missing from Hogwarts. Again, I think it could be that wizards are following their own, older traditions. Comprehensive muggle education is a relatively modern development. Before it came along most children were just taught what it was felt they needed to know: reading, writing and arithmetic, a little history and civics to make them good citizens and then practical skills for a trade. Higher education was available to only a select few for a long time and many people known for their intelligence were largely self taught (think Dumbledore). This could be closer to how the wizard world works.
But what about reading, writing and arithmetic? My guess is that they are taught as part of other classes. Astronomy class would require math so probably some geometry and algebra would be taught. Most all classes require reading texts and writing essays, so students learn by doing. This would still be lacking from a muggle perspective, but some things would be covered. Art, drama and music are perhaps pursued on ones own at home or through school clubs.
From a wizards perspective, Hogwarts is a highly respected school and it is probably considered to be very comprehensive - students study or at least have the opportunity to study all facets of magic. But I have to agree that a Hogwarts education would leave a wizard at a great disadvantage in a muggle school or university.
Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I was a little excited to find the subject being discussed and I wanted to put these thoughts out there. Again, great topic!
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Post by Mirabelle on May 29, 2009 18:59:59 GMT -5
Plus, wizards misunderstanding muggles and their world is the source of a lot of humor in the books. Remember Archie and his refreshing breeze? While I can understand using this on a writing level, it does serve to make the wizarding world look more insular and disinterested in others than JKR might have intended. Arthur Weasley has been accused of being condescending in his attitudes towards muggles with his "How do they cope?" questions.
I also don't think it helps that the only real look we have at a wizarding family are the pure-blooded Weasleys. I wonder if Seamus and Dean's friendship could have been founded on the fact that Seamus, as a half-blood with a muggle father, knew a lot more about the muggle world than Ron or Neville.
Harry doesn't seem to miss the muggle world at all.
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Post by cuthbertbinns on May 30, 2009 21:09:25 GMT -5
Insular is probably a good way of putting it, Mirabelle. After wizard secrecy began, wizards would have kept much more to themselves by necessity. Together with the idea that modern wizards try to maintain a cultural separation (not canon, of course, but the books give the impression of significant separation), insularity is almost unavoidable. Sure, their are muggleborn wizards, but they enter at a young age and I could imagine there being social mores against acting too mugglish.
I guess you are wondering how it is with students who are half in wizard society? School term at Hogwarts and summers playing soccer and going to movies. And at school, how well do the students mix?
It's true, we don't really see much of family life for muggleborns or mixed muggle/wizard families. The later is the most interesting. What is life like at home in Seamus' family? Are they more muggle or wizard?
Harry is kind of an exception. Muggle life was rather miserable for him, and his parents, who he misses greatly, were wizards so he wasn't leaving much behind.
Of course you're right that, more than anything, the humor is Jo's point with these interactions - and thankfully so, since they are very funny. But it is also fun to imagine how the reality of this unreality would work out.
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Post by Mirabelle on May 30, 2009 22:19:31 GMT -5
I think in a mixed marriage it'd be easier to be more muggle than magical. The magical person can actually learn how to use electricity and appliance while there's no way a muggle can learn how to use magic.
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Post by vegablack on Jun 4, 2009 19:40:26 GMT -5
I wonder if Seamus's father is around at all. He never talks about him as part of his life. He only speaks about his mother. Some claim that is because she knows more about magical world. But it applies to little things as well. Seamus goes to the Quidditch match with his mother, but he never talks about football which one would assume his father would know about. When Dean discusses football with Ron, Seamus doesn't chime in and seems ignorant.
I can't see any sign that Seamus's father is important to him at all.
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