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Post by Author By Night on Mar 3, 2009 17:23:58 GMT -5
The Longbottoms weren't attacked until after Voldie's defeat, so perhaps everyone was letting their guard down a bit. That's the impression I got when Dumbledore told Harry about it in PoA - he sort of said something like "everyone was just starting to feel safe again", which implies that everyone probably would have put their guard down. |
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Post by Mirabelle on Mar 3, 2009 19:43:08 GMT -5
Point taken. Still, where was Neville on the night his parents were tortured?
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Post by Author By Night on Mar 3, 2009 20:01:01 GMT -5
That's a good question... he may have been home, but either not subjected to torture because he didn't "need' to be, or the Aurors came in time to rescue him - just not Alice and Frank.
I suppose it is possible Alice and Frank were in hiding as well, but perhaps with no Secret Keeper? They may have simply been laying low.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 4, 2009 9:49:05 GMT -5
This is pure speculation because I don't think we can figure anything out from the books, but I have my own vision of how things happened that I've built up from what little material we are given.
Dumbledore doubted that Voldemort was completely gone. He shared that opinion with McGonagall. I'm sure he would have shared that with an Order member who was an Auror. Frank may have been investigating what happened to Voldemort as part of his job. It would have been a logical thing to do. An Auror or any cop wouldn't have just assumed a dangerous notorious criminal was gone they would have looked to be sure.
I picture Alice as having stopped working to look after Neville. Even if she knew nothing of the Prophesy she would have known that two other sets of Order members (Bones and McKinnons) were killed with their entire families. She would have seen her child as having been in danger even if she knew nothing of the Prophesy. An an Order she was a professional body guard anyway. I suspect she saw that as her new job.
As she was no longer working and may have overstayed anykind of leave she had, she was not acting as an Auror in the eyes of the court when she was attacked. I think that would give an explanation for why she isn't called one in the trial.
Neville was with her when she was attacked. The only explanation why she wasn't working would be to protect him and I don't think she would trust him with anyone but a skilled professional. I can't see Auorors who are cops and given to be suspicious acting the same as the general population.
Neville was hidden very very well and not found by the attackers. He was protected through the whole ordeal. I do not think they could have been aware of him because first of all they would have killed him and second of all as Dogstar pointed out on the Sugar Quill, Bellatrix says to Neville that she has met his parents not that she has met him before.
Frank and Alice were Aurors who were highly skilled and lived dangerous lives. I can not believe that they wouldn't have come up with a plan to protect their child. I like to give them the dignity of having done so.
(I write about them. I have a plan of how she did it that I will put in the multi chapter fic I have started and left hanging.)
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Post by magikcat on Mar 4, 2009 11:45:37 GMT -5
I like your explanation for who things might have gone that terrible night.
This is something that came to me while I was in the House System thread, but do you think Neville would've shined as well as he did if he hadn't been put in Gryffindor -- like if he were put in Hufflepuff?
It's possible, but I have my doubts. From the beginning, he didn't think he was brave, and putting him in Hufflepuff would make him think so more. I think through his school years he had a thought that "The Sorting Hat put me in Gryffindor -- that must mean something." He had to grow into his bravery and being around the trio -- who I think he somewhat admired, though not in a Colin Creevy-ish way -- helped.
Thoughts?
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Post by vegablack on Mar 4, 2009 17:28:13 GMT -5
Putting Neville in Gryffindor gave him contact with Harry, who he seems to have admired and to have watched and tried to emulate. In the last book he points to things he did with the DA that were similar to what he thought Harry would do. He says that he noticed that it gave people courage when Harry mouthed off to authority for instance and so he challenged the Carrows verbally to give the DA courage.
His friendship with Harry meant a lot to him. He defends Harry and in the first book compares himself to him. I think his friendship with Harry gave him tools to know what to do and how he wanted to act.
Being in Gryffindor and having Ron and Harry tell him he was a Gryffindor certainly encouraged him when he needed it. He seems to want to be brave but feels he can't be. Just being in Gryffindor gave him hope that he could be.
He does seem to think Hufflepuff was the loser house where he belonged. I tend to think that like everything else in his family he'd been compared to his parents in that area and fallen short. I bet they were in Gryffindor and in deed that the family was traditionally in Gryffindor. He has such a sense of family pride and of having fallen short of expectations, I think he feared being placed in another house and of failing everyone again. (His gran strikes me as being almost a caricature of a Gryffindor. She admires courage to the point of being thrilled that her grandson went on a dangerous mission with Harry Potter that involved confronting Death Eaters.)
I suspect being in Gryffindor gave him a sense that he had something of his parents in him and that encouraged him.
Placement in Gryffindor played a big role in his development, but I think I could imagine a scenario where he was in Hufflepuff and still became what he did.
While the trio supported and accepted Neville, they did tend to patronize him. Maybe he would have blossomed in an environment where others saw him more as an equal.
I'm unusual in that I don't see McGonagall as a particularly encouraging head of house for him.
My sons and I joke that the kids in Hufflepuff are shocked to discover in book five that no one else knew about Neville's parents. They'd known since first year when having heard that Neville lived with his gran they asked him if his parents were all right. He told them that they were very sick and lived in the hospital which they thought was sad. Every Christmas they take up a collection to send them flowers. They just assumed that everyone knew.
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Post by MWPP on Mar 6, 2009 0:47:42 GMT -5
I think Neville was very much present when Frank and Aice were tortured.
He would have been an outstanding tool for the DEs to use against them (what parent would allow their child to be tortured if they knew anything?), and the DEs are smart enough not to kill a kid in front of his parents if the parents stil might give them what they want, so they would have stopped short of killing him.
There is also the possibility that Frank and/or Alice did their best to hide him when the DEs were on the doorstep, but that he still heard, possibly saw, their torture.
That he experienced it somehow is underlined in fake-Moody's class when he reacts so badly to the spider being Crucioed. There is another spot where there is a screechy noise and Neville squeeks it could be someone screaming, and there are other indications that he at least heard what was going on.
All through the books JKR describes him as "forgetful" and makes jokes about his incompetence. (Eventually we discover that he didn't have a wand that had actually chosen him - he had his dad's old one - thus creating even more stumbling blocks for a kid for whom things were difficult to start wtih.) However, I think that he was forgetful either because he had, himself, been tortured - or the clean-up squad had Obliviated what he had seen and that was just a tad too strong/harmful for a year-old kid.
I think he was placed in Gryffindor House because he intrinsically was brave and strong, a true Gryffindor - it just took a while to get past the residual effects of his parents' attack. He was, in several spots through the books, the one who took a bigger chance, usually one that made it possible for the others to succeed, and generally wasn't acknowledged for it.
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Post by doriscrockford on Mar 6, 2009 5:45:19 GMT -5
I think he was placed in Gryffindor House because he intrinsically was brave and strong, a true Gryffindor - it just took a while to get past the residual effects of his parents' attack. He was, in several spots through the books, the one who took a bigger chance, usually one that made it possible for the others to succeed, and generally wasn't acknowledged for it.
I agree with this. I know there is no substantiated proof for it (No one ever says "I saw Neville in the room when Frank and Alice were being tortured") but it is one of those ideas that was so prevalent in the 3 year summer and was never proven wrong in subsequent books that it seems canon to me. I know it isn't, but I will always think it to be what happened until JKR gives another interview and says that at the time of the torture Neville was being babysat by Mrs Longbottom's hat.  |
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 6, 2009 11:12:04 GMT -5
I also agree that Neville was clearly brave at heart. Even Dumbledore said so....
"It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends. I therefore award ten points to Mr. Neville Longbottom."
SS, US edition,page 306
So there's no question that Neville was brave, but like Ron, he had his own insecurities and inner demons to fight.
I disagree that it's likely he was aware of his parents being tortured. Frank and Alice Longbottom appear to have been tortured soon after Voldemort disappeared on Halloween 1981, or at least that's the impression I'm left with after re-reading Chapter 30 of GofF. I was incorrect when I posted before that they were tortured for being thrice defied. Chapter 30 makes it clear they were tortured for information as someone else stated before:
"The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Cruse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named-"
Barty Crouch Sr. at the trial of his son, Chapter 30, page 595, US edition of GofF
It's also stated in the chapter that this trial scene had taken place a long time before Harry's fourth year when he fell through the Pensieve and witnessed it for Crouch Sr. and Ludo Bagman are both described as being younger: Ludo was "clearly at the height of his Quidditch-playing fitness. His nose wasn't broken now; he was tall and lean and muscular." p. 591
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"Crouch's hair was dark, his face was much less lined, he looked fit and alert." p. 587
So Neville was very young when his parents' torture took place.
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Post by MWPP on Mar 6, 2009 16:37:47 GMT -5
How does being young make Neville not be around his parents when they were tortured? Especially with all the evidence of how he freaks out every time he hears screaming (earmuffs scene in the greenhouse, fake-Moody torturing the spider, etc.)?
He definitely has "left-overs" from the trauma of it. .. either from himself blocking, or from the effects of what was used on him at the time.
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 6, 2009 18:22:32 GMT -5
Because Ludo Bagman and Barty Crouch Sr. were so much younger during the trial of Barty Crouch Jr. for their torture and because it appears they were tortured soon after Voldemort disappeared in 1981, Neville would only have been a baby - about a year old, two at most. Even if he was present, he wouldn't later recall it.
Since he has had constant reminders his entire life of what the Cruciatus Curse can do (I'm thinking gum wrappers here), it's no stretch that he'd be upset to see that curse put to use.
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nundu
Second Year
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Post by nundu on Mar 6, 2009 21:47:22 GMT -5
Neville would only have been a baby - about a year old, two at most. Even if he was present, he wouldn't later recall it. I disagree. A traumatic event could ingrain itself easily on the memory of a 15-20 month old. I have a very distinct memory of when I was 15 months old (according to my mother). It wasn't a traumatic or dramatic event, just a memory of a fairly common day and a very detailed memory of a church that I was only in that day. It can happen. Sorry, mwpp, you're letting the movie taint your idea of Neville. There is no mention of him in the earmuffs scene in CoS. I do agree though that there is a memory of the cruciatus curse though, from his reaction to both Fake-Moody class and later when Harry opens his egg in the Common Room. |
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Post by kelleypen on Mar 7, 2009 11:21:46 GMT -5
I think Neville has a memory of it. It may be why his magic is a bit slow even. But the way he acted when the fauxmoody mentioned it shows more than just his gran telling him, in my opinion.
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Post by pigwithhair on Mar 7, 2009 14:29:19 GMT -5
I've always attributed his magic being off to the fact that he doesn't have his own wand until after the DofM episode at the end of the fifth book.
What a great character Neville was. The gum wrapper incident was haunting.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the memory thing. I just can't buy off on him remembering that. I'm really glad JKR says he lives above the Leaky Cauldron and marries Hannah. I wanted Neville to end up happy almost as much as I did Harry.
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Post by MWPP on Mar 7, 2009 22:38:05 GMT -5
Good catch, Nundu.... Next I'll be quoting fanfics.... Sorry.
I, too, have memories from under two years of age. I couldn't tell you the exact time/age (I think because kids don't relate to time, they're too immediate... I can tell the season/weather of it), but I remember watching my Dad run some heavy equiptment (he was building some houses near ours), and other instances. fitting/sitting under this unusual coffee table my family had. There are more things I remember from then, but the point is, little kids remember all sorts of things that they aren't usually completely aware of once they are older because it is pre-verbal and our society puts far too much emphasis on words.
Something traumatic would imprint even more strongly. There are studies of kids who've grown up in trerrifying situations (the war in Bosnia for example) that actually show their brain chemistry and structure is altered permanently from being immersed in violent situations.
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nundu
Second Year
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Post by nundu on Mar 8, 2009 13:50:43 GMT -5
One more pro-Neville memories...I think JKR wanted to show us it was possible. In PoA she has Harry remembering his parent's attack. If Harry can remember his parent's attack, then it stands to reason that Neville should be able to remember his parent's attack.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 8, 2009 18:03:37 GMT -5
I think there is proof in the books that Neville wasn't tortured by his parents attackers: Mr. Crouch doesn't list it as one of their crimes. Since the single use of an unforgiveble was a crime worthy of being sent to Azkaban, using the cruciatus curse on a baby even if he wasn't injured like his parents would have been a crime worth mentioning.
I don't think Neville was present because Bellatrix doesn't say I know you boy, she says I've met your parents. If he had been there she would have taunted him with it.
I think just thinking about his parents, their experience and their current condition would be enough to upset him during the Mood spider moment. He would have thought about them for a long time after the indident, that would have been enough to upset him when he heard the egg scream. It was his own imaginings and thoughts that upset him. This would be understandable, if you thought about an attack on a loved one that terrible it would upset you too.
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Post by MWPP on Mar 8, 2009 20:12:42 GMT -5
While your idea is fairly good, Vega, it doesn't take into account the forgetfulness that Neville is known for, whereas his having been traumatized or Obliviated does. It is fairly common that people block incidents that where overwhelming, for example, people who have been in car wrecks often lose the incident itself and then are uncomfortable riding in cars after they have healed. Being close enough (if not directly involved) would warrant subconscious blockage on Neville's part. Just because they didn't say anything in the trial scene in the Pensieve doesn't preclude that he wasn't there. Why wouldn't a just-over-a-year-old child be with his parents/mother? Where would he have been?
Until JKR tells us explicitly we have no way of knowing for sure, but I think there is enough circumstantial evidence that I stand firm on the fifteen-month-old Neville having been there when his parents were tortured.
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Post by vegablack on Mar 10, 2009 11:48:37 GMT -5
I agree that there is a lot of latitude when discussing anything not explicitly stated in the books, and there is evidence and argument for both opinions.
Mwwp, your statement that the most likely place for Neville is with his mother is I think a powerful one, especially since Crouch's words at the trial, calling her the Auror's wife, implies that she wasn't working at the time she was captured, that she was acting as a private citizen rather than an Auror at the time she was captured.
I still stick to my opinion that Neville was hidden in some way and protected from contact with his parent's attackers. First, I can't get away from the fact that Bellatrix taunts him with her history of attacking his parents and not attacking him.
Clumsiness and forgetfulness is common in grieving children. It's listed along with being subject to bullying in every list I've ever seen of behaviors of children under some kind of major stress. I think the simple facts of his home-life and parent's situation are enough to account for Neville's and his gran's behaviors, but I also agree that he fits the pattern for someone who has experienced major trauma.
There's one argument for Neville being present that I just thought of. He is a foil for Harry, a mirror image Harry. The child who isn't chosen, who fails where Harry succeeds, who often is a secondary less powerful copy of Harry. Even when he succeeds his success is a less powerful secondary copy of Harry's success.
Harry is close to Albus, Neville to Aberforth. Harry loves to fly while Neville likes to dig in the dirt on the ground. Harry fits in and succeeds at school almost from the beginning, coming to Hogwarts is like coming home, while Neville struggles, and barely stays in school. He fears he is a Squib and that he doesn't really belong at Hogwarts. Harry is an athlete while Neville is clumsy. In the end Harry kills Voldemort and the Basilisk, while Neville kills the less powerful snake and denies Voldemort but doesn't kill him.
Voldemort comes to the house to kill Harry, and kills his parents in order to do it. Voldemort fails and harry vanquishes Voldemort.
Voldemort's servants come to Neville's home to torture his parents to get information from them. They succeed in torturing Neville in order to get at his parents. That would fit the pattern set up in the books. Neville's life is a mirrors Harry's.
Is this nonsense?
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Post by MWPP on Mar 10, 2009 18:01:46 GMT -5
Brilliant, Vega!!!
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