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Post by Author By Night on Feb 10, 2009 16:59:32 GMT -5
Discuss the bond and changes between the trio - Ron, Harry and Hermione - here. I'll start this thread off with some general questions. The entire thread does not need to be in question format, of course. I find it interesting how Harry was almost instantly friends with Ron - and yet didn't initially like Hermione much at all. In fact, I think it was only in the last three books that they really started to have the same type of closeness as Harry and Ron - not that Hermione was never Harry's best friend before, but if Ron and Hermione got into a fight, Harry would side with Ron. Does anyone else find that interesting? When do you think they finally became his best friends in the same way - or do you think that Harry does still have different types of "best friendship" with each of them?
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 18, 2009 15:09:10 GMT -5
That's an interesting way to kick off the topic - good question.
Ron is a laugh to be around, I think Harry even thinks this himself during those frosty days in HBP when Ron and Hermione weren't speaking to each other. Ron provides humor and an easy, relaxed companionship. And, of course, they both love Quidditch. Theirs is an easy friendship. Also, Ron provided Harry a ticket as an honorary Weasley.
With Hermione things are trickier. She's prickly at times and seems to annoy both boys throughout the series, even if her intentions are good. She doesn't understand Quidditch and spends much more time and energy studying or researching. She's not as fun to be around and the atmostphere around her isn't as relaxed.
Plus, there is something to be said for Ron and Harry being boys. There's a natural understanding between them that seems to be there right from the first when Harry offered to share his sweets with Ron.
I'm not even sure this changed completely by DH. I do think Harry's fondness for Hermione as a sister is deeper than it was earlier on. He has a lot of respect for her, certainly. Even without Ron and Hermione's romance I think Ron and Harry would remain closer. I feel that their romance will resurrect a wedge in Harry and Hermione's friendship. Oh, they're remain close friends, but not as close as Harry is to Ron.
So I think it m
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Post by vegablack on Feb 18, 2009 18:38:12 GMT -5
I think its interesting that through much of the series and especially in the last book Hermione has acted as a protector of Harry. Through out the books much of the research she does is for his benefit. In the last book she engineers his escape from life threatening situations on three occasions that I can think of. It is she that realized they needed an escape bag and packed it; it is she who brought what money they had and it's she how has some plan at all for when they needed to go on the run. She puts up the tent they live in and creates the protective charms.
When Ron runs away from Harry she elects to stay with him though Ron is the one she loves. She was willing to risk her Ron and even hurt Ron as she was willing to exile her parents and all for Harry. She understands Harry's importance, but I think it sheds light on her feelings for him. She is protective of him. I would call her almost maternal toward him.
He accepts it at times without question. He never takes on the role of person who makes sure we have a roof over head and food to eat. He also resents it and that is part of the tension in their relationship. Ron is jealous perhaps of both of them. It is an interesting dynamic.
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Post by starsea on Feb 22, 2009 13:04:58 GMT -5
Ah, but Harry does take on the role of protector to Hermione... in DH. When Ron leaves, he's the one who does the protective spells and things, because Hermione is knocked for six by Ron's departure. While Hermione is a friend to Harry from PS/SS, in my mind, Harry only becomes a friend to Hermione in HBP when he pulls that delicate balancing act of being both her friend and Ron's while Ron is with Lavender (as opposed to PoA, when he blatantly sided with Ron over the Scabbers/Crookshanks problem) and then completes this transition in DH by looking after her in the immediate aftermath of Ron's departure. Before that, he accepts her friendship and sticks up for her when necessary but he's passive about their relationship (very much like Lupin, oddly enough).
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 22, 2009 16:20:16 GMT -5
I agree that Hermione was Harry's friend long before he was a friend back to her, but I didn't take HBP the same way. It bothered me that Harry kept trying to get Hermione to talk to Ron, but never prodded Ron to apologize or talk to Hermione. This was made worse in my view considering Harry knew why Ron had turned on Hermione, though Hermione was never privy to that information.
Harry never apologized to her for what happened to Hermione at the DofM, after she had warned him - rightly so - that Sirius may not be there nor did Harry apologize to Hermione after her torture at Malfoy Manor. Ron had repeatedly warned him not to use LV's name aloud. That also bugged me.
I know Harry's always had an anger issue, and I get that Ron and Hermione have taken on an almost substitute parent role when it comes to Harry venting, but I thought his anger at Hermione over his wand breaking after she had just saved his butt was too far.
The protective spells after Ron left had to be done and he could see she was in no state to do them, but I didn't take it as an act of friendship. It was an odd moment just after that when Harry covered her with a blanket, which was kind, but it was Ron's blankets.
Ouch.
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Post by mo on Feb 22, 2009 17:18:27 GMT -5
I'd like to second PigWithHair's comments and also add:
1) In HBP, not only did Harry not urge Ron to make it up with Hermione, he spoke when he shouldn't have ("I think she did" snog Krum) and then didn't when he should have. ("She meant as friends, right? RIGHT?") AND, while he did remain friends with Hermione at that time, he didn't do so in any way that was inconvenient or difficult for him. The closest he came to actual support was his silent presence during The Canary Incident and when he asked Luna to the party after Luna comforted Hermione...that act felt slightly tinged with guilt to me, kind of like "Someone made my friend cry, and I'm useless...but you helped, so I feel like doing something nice for you." (Plus, the compassion Luna showed Hermione clearly reminded Harry of what a good person she is. If only he could tap in to a little of his own compassion.)
2) I didn't see much comfort coming from Harry in DH, either. I mean, she is completely falling apart after Ron leaves, and the best he can do is throw a blanket on her? Really? He's too wrapped up in being angry at Ron himself to feel any compassion or even remorse for having fought with Ron and contributed to his departure. His casting of the protective spells didn't feel like an act of compassion to me, it was more like that scene was there to underscore just how badly Hermione was suffering. THEN, he was a pill over the wand, after Hermione had been so supportive of that difficult visit to his parents' graves. It extended beyond Ron's return, too...his only comment to Hermione after Malfoy Manor was rather an afterthought.
I like to imagine that after the dust settled post-battle, Harry was finally able to be a little less selfish. We are told frequently through the books that Harry is "good" and loving, but Voldemort pretty much dominated his mind and forced him to be pretty uncaring sometimes. I hope that that summer of 1998 saw Harry finally able to thank Hermione and tell her what he had already told Ron, that he loves her as the sister he never had.
Edited to make #2 about DH and not HBP, thanks, Starsea!
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Post by starsea on Feb 22, 2009 18:08:09 GMT -5
2) I didn't see much comfort coming from Harry in HBP, either. I think you mean DH, right? Yes, really. He's too angry himself to try and comfort her with words, and Harry's always been better with actions than words, anyway. Plus, Harry spent his whole childhood in a home where he was NEVER cared for or nutured in the way he should have been. He's completely shocked when Molly Weasley hugs him in GoF, he can't even hug her back. Even Ron can pat Hermione on the back when she hugs him in PoA. Yes, Harry has now had six whole years at Hogwarts, where he's been with people who cared for him, but in that time he has also been put in very dangerous situations (sometimes by himself, more by other people) and tortured more than once. For Harry, the best thing in that situation is that he can put a blanket around Hermione's shoulders. And no, he wouldn't think about them being Ron's blankets. The important fact, to him, is that they're blankets. Well, I think a lot of people would be like that, not just Harry. Because at that point, that wand was the only thing that might have saved him in a fight against Voldemort! Without a wand, he was completely defenceless, just like all the Muggleborns, who'd had their wands taken away. He never said "it's your fault, Hermione" or "how could you". Yeah, his expression probably said it all, but he managed not to say it. And again, for Harry, that's a big thing. Maybe he apologised or said something and we weren't told about it. He and Ron supposedly got Hermione birthday presents every single year but we don't know about them because Jo didn't think it was important. I hope so too.
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Post by mo on Feb 22, 2009 18:24:46 GMT -5
Good points, starsea, and I particularly agree that Harry's experience with the Dursley's left him a bit of an emotional cripple in terms of affection and self-expression. I just personally found myself frustrated on more than one occasion by the way that Harry seemed to find it comparatively easy to recognise and express his appreciation for Ron and the Weasleys. That brother/sister bond just wasn't explored to my satisfaction in Canon...Harry/Hermione friendship fics are actually one of my favorite fanfic genres. Well done, they underscore what a nice bond the two of them have. I'd imagine that as life goes on, they will actually become closer. Imagine all those mahem-filled Weasley family get-togethers and our two only child in-laws finding some peace out in the orchard or something....
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 22, 2009 18:47:09 GMT -5
I can attribute much of Harry's lack of expressing emotion to those closest to him throughout the series to his childhood, I've even mentioned that in another post here.
But one of my close friends was raised, very unfortunately, much the same way as Harry. I mean to say she was abused and neglected. And while she's uncomfortable in many situations, she definitely expresses affection to those she cares most about because she knows what it's like to not have it.
I have to factor in that Harry is male, okay, but by the age of eighteen, I still can't agree that his childhood is the root of what has been mentioned in my previous post, especially after Hermione saved his life at Godric's Hollow.
We just have differ interpretations of his character there.
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Post by starsea on Feb 22, 2009 20:02:29 GMT -5
But one of my close friends was raised, very unfortunately, much the same way as Harry. I mean to say she was abused and neglected. And while she's uncomfortable in many situations, she definitely expresses affection to those she cares most about because she knows what it's like to not have it. But him putting blankets around her is expressing affection. It may not be as big a gesture as you would wish; it may not be a hug or a gentle word, or any of those things that girls are so good at, but it's as much as he can do at that moment in time, and more than he would have been able to do even a year ago. mo, I understand your frustration! I think with the Weasleys, it's easier for Harry to accept and respond to their affection because it's quite obvious and warm. Hermione expresses her affection in worrying about Harry lots and, in the early years, nagging his head off! We know that's just Hermione's way of caring, but for Harry, it's hard to figure out that Hermione nagging him about his homework and the TriWizard tournament and the Horcruxes is just the way she says "I love you and I want you to be safe". He gets irritated with her nagging because she doesn't know when to stop (she's only young, after all) and he often think she's worrying about nothing when she worries over the details. Those are things that can only improve as he gets older and understands her better. I believe that in DH, he does mention once or twice that "if it weren't for you, we'd be dead by now" and that is a big thing for Harry.
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Post by pigwithhair on Feb 22, 2009 20:38:04 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree there. Yes, he did cover her with blankets - Ron's blankets. The exact quote is he "threw" them over her, so I just don't read it the same way that you do, that's all.
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Post by mo on Feb 22, 2009 21:37:53 GMT -5
I'm struggling with this one, because on one hand, while reading HBP and DH, I felt just as you describe, PWH....I was so MAD at Harry for not being a better friend to Hermione!
But, I'm currently doing an RP through DH where I am supposed to play out Harry, and I'm stuck trying to make sense of his emotions and actions. I've settled on to his feeling a deep affection and loyalty towards Hermione, but truly struggling because he really and truly does not know how to express it properly. Emotions in general make my Harry VERY uncomfortable. If Ron is a "teasthingy," Harry is an eyedropper. I even posit that part of Ginny's appeal for Harry is that after growing up with 6 brothers, she's a bit of a tomboy and not given to too much weeping, emoting, or relationship dissection.
ETA: The autochanger has me totally cracking up. Teasthingy? Sthingy. sthingy. Let's see if that becomes "thingies." ETA II: BWAHAHAHAH. Sthingy! It's got a lisp! Thank goodness we're not writing recipes! "Honey, I need one Tablesthingy of Baking Powder!"
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Post by Author By Night on Feb 23, 2009 7:57:41 GMT -5
ETA: The autochanger has me totally cracking up. Teasthingy? Sthingy. sthingy. Let's see if that becomes "thingies." ETA II: BWAHAHAHAH. Sthingy! It's got a lisp! Thank goodness we're not writing recipes! "Honey, I need one Tablesthingy of Baking Powder!" I thought I fixed it, but it's still showing what you said as censored. Let me try... spoon... ETA: It worked, but I guess it's too late for yours. Sorry about that.
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Post by mo on Feb 23, 2009 8:16:50 GMT -5
Ironically, this autochanger is making me see dirty words where I never saw them before. I almost want to find other words with hidden vulgarities and see what happens. Fortunately for us all, I'm too lazy to actually do it.
I'm leaving my "thingy" post, though. Because I think its hilaaaarious, and I adore what amuses me.
ETA: Back to topic: once Ron was clear on the whole "Harry and Hermione are not interested in each other romantically" thing, how do you think he saw the trio dynamic. At Shell Cottage, it seemed like things had shifted a little, with more of an even triangle thing (not love-triangle competition...I mean a nice equilateral triangle of even-ness.) going on. I think Harry's new, more "Lone wolf" independent mood combined with Ron's strong feelings after almost losing Hermione made for a more even balance in the trio.
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Post by MWPP on Feb 23, 2009 21:56:01 GMT -5
My take on Ron's new attitude at Shell Cottage is that he'd had a reality check with the Snatchers and realizing that he'd stormed off in a childish snitt that could have really lost him his friends, his life, their lives, his family's safety, and so forth. Sort of an "Instant Grow-Up".
I didn't see it as much of anything to do with showing Harry about Hermione, that was secondary. He came back first, then showed that. It did take a lot to be open to that vulnerability, but showed some maturation in doing so.
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Post by mo on Feb 24, 2009 8:28:34 GMT -5
Oh, just to clarify, I don't think Ron was deliberately trying to "show" Harry anything at Shell Cottage. I think that actually, for the first time, his actions towards Hermione were purely motivated by his feelings rather than concerns about how she or Harry or anyone else may react. She almost died, and he got a glimpse of just what it would mean to him to really live without her. There was no more messing around, stupid ego issues were dwarfed by that certainty of heart. SO, he is more demontrative and attentive.
Meanwhile, Malfoy Manor was a wake-up call of a different kind for Harry. Seeing Dobby die and almost losing Hermione seemed to snap him to attention and suddenly he is ready to be a leader. He is not lost in the woods and waiting for someone else to figure it out any more. It's no longer "Harry and His best mate Ron and their other friend Hermione" for him so much as "Harry, leading the way with the help of RonandHermione." (one word on purpose)
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Post by siriusgirl on Jan 13, 2010 16:22:30 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about them. Of the three, I do think Hermione is the most practical, and more serious and mature (she's a year older after all). Ron is the light one and they both keep Harry grounded
One of Harry's big weaknesses is he doesn't often see gray areas or put things in the right context. He ASSUMES Snape is always guilty, guilty, guily. Even if there's reason he always is so sure Snape is up to no good, just because it's Snape and Snape is nasty. He sees the scene with his dad bullying Snape-- which yes that was going too far-- but he just blows it up and assumes that his dad was always like that and doesn't want to be like him and that his mom hated his dad etc, when really they WERE idiots but they were 15 (Yes, Harry you too were a bit of an idiot at 15). And he reads about Dumbledore and gets all angry about it, even though it's SKEETER writing, and he knows how truthful she is, and forgets that he wasn't Dumbledore's confidante and that some things are too painful to talk about and like Ron and Hermione both said: HE CHANGED! I do like Harry but he can be so frustrating.
I think Ron and Hermione pull him back to earth, and also are his rock. I do agree with everyone about Harry being closer to Ron than Hermione. But it's a sign of true friendship that they not only stand by him, even when he's being unreasonable but also call him out on his BS when they have to, something we see in MWPP that was Lupin's failings. I think Dan Radcliffe was spot on the money when he said Harry tends to make himself a martyr, but Ron and Hermione know better and don't let him.
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Post by siriusgirl on Jul 10, 2010 16:06:29 GMT -5
Oh, and to add to that, Hermione tells the other two what they don't want but definitely need to hear. The whole bit with Kreacher comes to mind, she points out that Sirius WAS horrible to Kreacher, and tells Harry there's no point getting angry or making excuses for Sirius, because he knows it was true.
Hermione acts as the voice of reason, and with Harry, he needs it, when he's being stuck on angry poor me mode (OOTP and at times, TDG) or just arrogant and refusing to listen (HBP re text book and Snape).
Ron is immature and funny, and it's easy to like him. The trio balances each other off: Harry is the leader and at times has a martyr complex, Ron is the strategist and in TDH for a while became substitute leader, Hermione is the voice of reason.
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Post by MWPP on Sept 19, 2010 19:02:01 GMT -5
Hermione as Reason, Ron Emotion, and Harry Action?
Side issue, nothing to do with the discussion at hand ~ was Hermione ever put in detention? There was Umbridge catching the DA, but I'm not remembering Hermione getting caught in "wrong-doing".
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Post by starsea on Sept 20, 2010 11:29:36 GMT -5
Side issue, nothing to do with the discussion at hand ~ was Hermione ever put in detention? There was Umbridge catching the DA, but I'm not remembering Hermione getting caught in "wrong-doing". Um, yeah! Right back in the first year. She was the one who helped Harry get Norbert up to the tower roof so Hagrid wouldn't get in trouble and then they were caught by McGonagall.
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